Evil...
After reading the first act of Macbeth as well as the first few chapters of Golding's Lord of the Flies, what do you see as the role of evil? Where have you seen connections in the emergence of evil in these two works of literature? Can you also draw any parallels to what is going on in our world today?
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posted by annes @ 8:12 AM
37 Comments:
After reading the first act of Macbeth and the first few chapters on Lord of the Flies, I have seen serveral instances of evil. The evil isn't really physical but emotions such a jealous and angry. I have also witnessed weakness in characters such as doubting and rethinking plots. There has also been some physical violence, such as in Macbeth, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are ploting to kill Ducan and in Lord of the Flies, Jack is hunting pig to eat.
I don't having any other questions.
So far with the progression of these two books, evil is lurking in the backgrounds just waiting to strike. It has shown itself a in tidbits through the actions of the main characters. Jack has already started to dislike Ralph in Lord of the Flies and the serpent has shown itself(whatever it may be). In Macbeth, there is a plot against the king and it is being carried out by one of the king's most trusted companions. Clearly, evil will show itself soon and when it does, situations are going to get tough.
Troughout the first few chapters of Macbeth and Lord of the Flies there as been a lo tof evil. There has been cruelty in L.O.F. when all of the kids on the island are really mean to Piggy. its not quite evil, but it is really mean. In Macbeth there has been many evil things. From Macbeth slicing a man in half to the witches trying to cause evil there has been a ton. Lady Macbeth plotting to kill King Duncan and Macbeth backstabbing King Duncan, a man that has trust in him. I will finish later i have to take movie notes.....
I think that one thing symbolising evil that the people above me seem to have missed is the "snake thing" in Lord of the Flies. I also would say that it directly correlates to the witches in Macbeth. They are both international symbols of mistrust and evil. In the case of the books both things also have a very mythical context applied to them.
I think that in Lord of the Flies, and Macbeth, evil comes where good is not present. Both Jack and Macbeth want power and when the opportunity is given to them, then they take it. They already are thinking about evil things, but when a time comes when they can gain power by doing those things, then evil comes in and takes over.
As one well knows after reading the beginnings of these books, neither are very uplifting. Both are very grim and depressing, even early in the book! Evil plays a huge part in both of the books. Evil, in Lord of the Flies, is defined moreso as human nature than anything else. In other words, Lord of the Flies states that evil is in every human being and just needs a time to be able to erupt out. In Macbeth, however, evil is seen as somehthing that only a few people truly possess. These people then pass on the ideas of evil onto others, much like how Lady Macbeth pressures Macbeth into murder.
I noticed that both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies use serpents to represent evil. Josh talked about this earlier, but didn't go into much detail. The serpent in Macbeth is used as a symbol of the evilness of Lady Macbeth, while, although I'm not sure exactly what it means, the "beastie" in Lord of the Flies can symbolize both the scariness of the situation the boys on the island are facing or the uncontrolable desire for power that has manifested in both Ralph and Jack. Both plays also have characters who strive for power and don't care who they hurt in order to gain it.
In both books there are signs of evil devloping in the plots. In Loard of the Flies there is jealousy and hardship, and in Macbeth there is death and murder.
In both LOF and Macbeth, there has been mention of a serpent, or snake. In both, this is the symbol of evil, which makes sense because the serpent is the universal sign of evil. In LOF, the unknown snake on the island that was mentioned just before the kid with the scar dissapeared is the evil. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth actually says that she and Macbeth need to be the serpent under the flower.
In our world today, many people are being "serpents under a flower". In Iraq, Sadam Heusen used the image that he was trying to fix the government of Iraq as a reason to kill people. Relationships between friends, both international and locally can be "serpents under a flower". As was discussed in "Phony Faces", friends treat us differently when they are with different groups. Often times, it's hard to guess which "face" is the true face.
I agree with laura b in that evil is coming through the bad sides of Macbeth and Jack. It's hard for both of them to accept the fact that someone else is in charge, that someone else is the leader. I think that instead of crawling all over the people who are lower (like Jack bullies Piggy), they should be nice and help those people because I bet in the end, these people might be the ones who really count.
I agree with anna d in that the evil in both pieces of literature is defined as being part of human nature and only needs a chance to erupt and show its true colors.
In L.O.F., the boys, who were once normal kids, are starting to become more uncivilized and traces of evil are seen on the island. Jack has become obsessed with trying to kill pigs, and although this may not be seen as evil exactly, I think that it is part of Jack's progression into becoming more callous and uncivilized, and possibly evil. I also agree with everyone who has mentioned the snake theme, and how that is possibly a sign of evil to come.
In Macbeth, the evil is also shown as part of human nature. Macbeth, because of a prophecy that he will become king, has allowed his ambition to cloud his judgement and decides to kill King Duncan, although he is reluctant to do so. The evil in both works of literature is what shapes the plot in both stories.
Examples of evil in our own society are in the paper every day. Murderers, terrorists, robbers, abusive men or women, and tons of other things that I can't even think of right now. Just as evil in the stories shape the plot, the evil in our world shapes who we are. We can choose to be on the side of evil, or go against it.
Evil is presented more in Macbeth right now than is in Lord of the Flies. In Macbeth, Macbeth talks about killing Duncan, but I don't really see the evil in him. The reason why I don't is because he has second thoughts and decides not to kill Duncan for a while. The real evil hides in Lady Macbeth. As we learned about her real personality, she's brutal and can manipulate Macbeth easily and she's the one now who really wants to kill Duncan.
Lord of the Flies though is different. Like Josh said, you can feel the evil in the air just waiting for the right moment. I'm not sure if I feel that I feel evil in the characters. I feel that they're mean and they're going crazy. I know that later, I will definitely feel evil spreading (since I've read the book before), but for as far as we've gotten, not much has developed. Jack, I just think he's a tad crazy from the sun and heat, not evil at this moment.
I find connections through the stories through the craziness that people are going through. I also found a connection between something else, but it's WAY later in the book, so I'll have to save it.
Evil related to the world today... Hm. Well one thing that I'd say that connects with Macbeth is jealousy. So many people are jealous of one another which can lead to chaos being caused.
I personally feel like Anna D. that Macbeth and LOF are trying to show that evil is prevalent is everyone. In Macbeth, every character from the extreme of Lady Macbeth to the witches has a varying degree of evil. Even Duncan has some wickedness in him; he had the Thane of Cawdor executed! LOF shows a similar concept. None of the people on the island are adults, but they are as malicious as grown ups. LOF is trying to show that we are all born vixenish. These ideas are contrary to what we hear in the media etc... that only mass murders, terrorists and the like are evil.
In both books I think that the evil side of some characters shows because of something that they truly want. In Macbeth, macbeth is willing to murder all because of what he will gain by doing so. In Lord of The Flies, Jack's dark side shows when he kills a pig for the meat. If something is at stake, people will do anything to get it.
I also agree what Adam said about how Macbeth and Jack both wear masks so that they can preform what they are doing without feeling overly guilty.
People today tend to be very power hungry...as if that that would make them stronger. People all over the world are commanding evil acts to get what they want.
I agree with Zach F on his idea of the difference of evil in Lord of the Flies and in Macbeth. I think that the three witches are another example of evil in Macbeth because they tell people of their futures, but they confuse them in the way that they tell them. For example, when they tell Banquo that his children will be kings, that means that Banquo's family will probably end up being more powerful than Macbeth's, but Banquo doesn't understand what the witches are telling him.
In Lord of the Flies, they children think that the beastie is evil, but they do not know that for sure.
There is very little in this world of ours that is actually EVIL. Bad, yes; wrong, yes; disgusting, yes. Maybe someone turned down the wrong path, or was lead by the wrong people, yes. but EVIL?
Evil is a stron word. One to be used in fantasy writing. Such as Lord Voldomort, or Sauron from Lord of the Rings.
I do not believe that there is any EVIL in Lord of the Flies or in Macbeth. Their actions or wishes or intents may be bad, but the characters themselves; I do not believe so.
Each character is human, and humans are loved, love other things, feel, laugh. Even Lady Macbeth has something going for her that would make Macbeth love her. Jack is obviously a strong leader, and all his chior members follow him. His parents also must have loved him.
There is very little that is fully and unconditionally EVIL. Things might be bad, or messed up, but most likely, not EVIL.
So far evil has appeared in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, but it has only shown in part. In Macbeth, flashes of evil have been seen throughout the plotting of Duncan's murder. Lady Macbeth actually calls on evil to help her, so it has obviously made appearances. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph and Jack have started to conflict a little. I think evil will show more than it already has later on in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies.
Both of the books that we are reading have characters that are power hungry. They cause confusion between characters and they try to take over with their own ideas. There is also weakness in the characters that create more problems. The evil is clearly shown in Macbeth when Macbeth comes up with the idea to kill Duncan and when Lady Macbeth encourages him. In LOF Jack wants to be the leader and seems to want to do anything to become it. His choir supports him in his actions.
After reading act 1, and the beginning of LOF, I have made some connections. I have come to realize that there are some sources of evil in each story. In Macbeth, I believe that the face of evil is Lady Macbeth, because she is the one that has had the most changes in mood. Also, she is the one that is really pushing for Duncan to be killed. This does make me wonder why everyone still sees her as an innocent face, when really she has such a split personality.
In LOF, I see the face of evil being Jack, although I do think that is a little early to decide. I think this because he is the one that portrays the mist jealousy towards the other boys on the island. Also, he is the one that is the most anxious to lead the boys, and have everyone do what they want him to.
In each story, I have noticed that the face of evil emerges when there is a situation under pressure, or they have to make a quick decision. In both stories, the evil emerges every once in a while, it is not all the time.
Just like in real life, I see evil emerge at different times, and then you can truly see who that person really is. Only in certain times, can you see the face of evil emerge through what you think is reality.
I agree with mphair. The characters in Macbeth and LOF are not evil. However, I think the role of evil is represented by their actions. Macbeth is planning to murder his king who is also his first cousin. To me, that could be considered "evil" but I don't think Macbeth is an all-around evil guy. Also, in LOF, Jack basically becomes a savage and is obsesses with killing a pig. Even though I do not like Jack as a character, I don't think he is evil, his actions are evil and violent. One connection I have made between the two books was that on page 55 of LOF the author talks about Ralph and Jack who are "...baffled in love and hate..." meaning they are good friends but they both have a need for powe and hate each other for that need. This reminded me of Macbeth because although he may not love King Duncan, Macbeth respects him but is conflicted because he wants to be king.
One parallel that I drew between our world and Lord of the Flies was that the boys don't get along because they don't take the time to understand each other. In our world, there seems to be conflict because we don't undestand different cultures, religions, lifestyles and other kinds of diversity.
Evil is definitly a force to consider in both MAcbeth and in LOF The characters are not evil but there actions are. Jack is becoming more and more violent about the whole killing the pig thing but that doesn't make him a bad guy. Macbeth is also obbessing with power, he want's it badly enough to kill Duncan. This action is evil but Macbeht is not in my opinion evil.
I believe that in both stories, there is some underlaying evil that is just waiting to strike. In LOTF, there are many things that seem to elude to the coming of evil. In Act I of Macbeth, Lady Macbeth and the witches seem to portray an evil sight.Though I don't believe Lady Macbeth is evil; just excessively ambitious. What evil can happen in both of these stories? What does the foreshadowing tell us about the future?
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I agree with many others along the lines that in Macbeth and Lord of the Flies the role of evil is power and jealousy. In Macbeth, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are becoming so power hungry, and Macbeth is starting to show jealousy because he realizes he is not going to have the power he wants. In LOF Ralph and Jack are trying to take the role as leader, but both of them can't seem to be the leader at the same time or agree on a leader. Also, today many countries are trying to gain more power than others, and become jealous when they don't have the same power or status.
I think that the evils in the two stories are different in some ways and the same in others. In LOTF, the evil resides in the boys primal insticts as the novel wears on. As they realize more and more that its going to be a long time before they are rescued, they become more and more amimal like. The evil also resides in the island, with the beastie and other things.
In Macbeth, the evil is also witihin the people, but they are not under the pressure of living on a completely uninhabited island. Their evil comes from power lust, and, in the witches case, from discontent at human content (if you can understand that at all).
Evil is portrayed in both Macbeth and LOF but in totaly different ways. In LOF evil is portrayed by Jack, mainly when he is killing the pig for meat. Also he dislikes Ralph and you can tell that by what he does and says around him. He knows that everyone has to work together but he doesn't want to follow Ralphs directions. In Macbeth evil is portrayed by Macbeth and Lady Macbeth planning a way to kill the king for the power themselves.
I like what Madison said about the leadership skills in Jack and in Ralph. What I noticed is that Jack is really good at intimidating and controlling a small group of kids. Ralph however can captivate the whole group as long as they are in a meeting. As soon as they dissipate he has no control. That is when Jack has the advantage.
Oh, thats not good. My post is not here.
The basic outline of what I said is that I think evil is the central cause of conflict. If all there was was good, it would be really boring. But evil causes the strife between characters and the world and nature and other elements. The combination of good battling evil is what creates every conflict. This is why evil is such a powerful force.
I am going to have to disagree with what kimmy C said about evil being black and white in macbeth, because we dont really know who is really evil, i mean sure Lady Macbeth is pretty evil but what about the witches? they essentially started the whole killing spree with their prophesy. I think that the evil in both books manefests itself in the desire for ultimate power. In LOF it is Jack vs. Ralph wanting to be the leader, while in Macbeth it is Lady Macbeth and Macbeth himself vying for the power that comes with being king. This may be a long shot but do you think that in each story there is an object that thrusts each character into the race for control? i mean in Macbeth it would be the prophesy that spurred Macbeth to plot to kill the king, but in lord of the flies i am having trouble finding an object to make the boys want power but it could possibly be the conch shell, since it plays a pretty important role in boys lives, and it is what made most of the boys like Ralph, by seeing him blowing the conch shell. Him blowing the Conch shell is also what brought all the boys together, and since it was Ralph who called the meeting together he was kind of in charge of it, putting him in an automatic position of power.
Also, people keep asking what the 'creepers' are in LOF and i think that they are just the vines and undergrowth that usually inhabit a dense forested area. anyway, thats all for tonight, see you all tomorrow!
I deffinitly see evil appear in both Macbeth and LOF, and as many people have already said, I see it as being similar and completely different. For example, I see them as being similar in the fact that evil is evil. Macbeth and lady Macbeth are obviously not acting good because they are plotting to kill the king, which i would consider that to be evil. In LOF Jack is claiming that a certain evil is taking over him to kill the pigs. In this regard I see the evils as being the same. However, the kind of evil that appears to me in Macbeth is one that is clear and is litterally told straight to your face. Lady Macbeth is planning to kill the king, she has these evil thoughts, and it is all told to you. You understand what the evil is exactly. In LOF, the evil is more of one that the reader needs to interpret and infer. There is no set in stone that Jack is evil, or that Ralph is evil, you need to infer that more than you need to in Macbeth. I like how others have said that in Macbeth it is black and white while in LOF it is grey, thats excellent, I agree completely.
A connection I see between the evils in the two works of litterature is that in Macbeth, Lady Macbeth calls upon spirits or gods to take over her body and to help her commit these evils, so as that it is not really her doing the evils. In LOF Jack does a similar thing when he is hunting. He sort of calls upon a different side to him to become evil and to kill. Thats really the only connection I can make so far.
As for parallels to our own world, I think evils can be seen from things as simple as stealing to terrism. I don't know if they actually call upon spirits or have another side of them take over themsleves, but it is very clear to me that evil is present in our world.
As many people have stated, the serpant in both stories seems to be the main symbol for evil. However, evil is seen in more and more people as the stories progress. At the begining of Macbeth, evil is seen in the traitors during the war, but nothing really seriously evil. But then the witches are thrown into the plot, and they are obvious signs of evil in the story, the way that they are mysterious and like to cause confusion and caios. After they tell Macbeth of the prophecy, they put the idea into his and Lady Macbeth's minds to do something evil, as "the serpant under the flower". Lady Macbeth and Macbeth, I think, are not evil in their own, but are just having evil work through them. If it had not been for the witches they never would have even thought to kill King Duncan.
As for Lord of the Flies, no one starts out acting evil or appearing as so. Yes, Ralph acts mean to Piggy, but he doesn't seem flat out nasty. But later on, Jack acts as if he thinks he should be idolized and, as a Christian, this doesn't seem exactly rightteous. He also seems a bit overly mean (more than normal teasing and making fun of as most kids would and do in the story) toward Piggy. He snaps at him in what seems to be an overly angry tone that was quite unnessesary and abnormal. He also has an odd taste for hunting alone now that they have been on the island for a decent amount of time and what is described as a look of evil in his eyes at the thought of finally killing a pig. A sudden and stunning thought came to me at that last sentence; What if Piggy gets on Jack's nerves a bit too much and he's the 'pig' Jack wants? Its a very frightening thought, but the way Macbeth is going, would it be surprising since we are reading both of them at the same time? Could there be any other similarities between the two books, other than evil and the thought of "Challenging the System"? In LOTF, There is also the mention of the "beastie" snake thing. How might this be the back bone of evil in the story?
All this talk of evil is kind of scaring me at the thought of how much evil is going on in our own lifes, whether that be the unkown secrets people have, those scary stories of kidnap and abuse and murder and accidents on the news, or the little (or not so little) fibs and lies we tell. I can't help but take a religious perspective of evil and good in our own lives, so i don't have much more to say on this front except that it is very apparent in our world, especially as we remember September 11th on the 5th anniverary of it on Monday. Also, I would like to end on a high note by asking the question of, How in the books and in our own lives do we fight it and what good do we see happening?
Oh snap! KathrynT, you totally freaked me out with the whole piggy and jack thing. dang, thats really creepy if it happens though! Its a good point even if it is kind of depressing. I wonder if the Evil that Jack seems to be hiding behind is evil enogh to make him kill another person?
Well, it seems to me that Jack himself might not be evil enough to really do something so terrible. His character seems to be the mean boy in class that just really wanted attention, so bosses everyone else around and does strange things. But it also seems that there may be more to it than that. The island appears to be bringing out the strange thoughts in him and making him snap. What do you think it is that makes him act in the way he does? Could the island have some mysterious affect on people or do you think it symblolizes something? Could the island represent evil in some way?
Here is an addition to my last statement.
However, a prediction is that something else, such as the circumstances, the "beastie", or the island could push him toward doing something as evil as killing. By himself Jack might not do it. After all, he is just a kid.
I think the role of evil in LOF is just what resides inside of the boys and the thoughts that they have. Like when Jack had the thought to kill the pig, but then had second thoughts because he didn't want to have to see the blood. The same is kind of true for Macbeth as well because he's always thinking about how badly he wants the power of the throne. Yet he was having second thoughts because he had earned the trust of his friend and hedidn't wnat to loose it.
I feel evil is much more prevalent in Macbeth up to this point. In Macbeth, there is murder for power, deception and betrayal among others. In Lord of the Flies, there are childish quarrels. There is definetly a power struggle in each. The characters in Lord of the Flies seem very competent at surviving and leadership, but to me they seem very immature, which some how makes them seem less evil to me. In Macbeth, the characters are adults and should, in theory, have more sense not to committ evil acts, not saying that's what happens. Basically, I believe the evil shown in Macbeth is true evil, while the evil shown so far in Lord of the Flies is not quite as evil. An example of evil from Macbeth is obviously the assassination of King Duncan, while it is more complicated in LOF. I believe the "beastie" symbolizes both the fear the boys have of not being rescued and the conflict over power. I think these power struggles are readily visible all over the world, even in America. People constantly strive to better their social positions and climb up the ladder to prosperity, although some are more daring and ambitious when it comes to climbing that ladder.
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