Friday, September 08, 2006

Evil...

After reading the first act of Macbeth as well as the first few chapters of Golding's Lord of the Flies, what do you see as the role of evil? Where have you seen connections in the emergence of evil in these two works of literature? Can you also draw any parallels to what is going on in our world today?

On a separate note, post any questions you need answered and help each other along. Make sure to use good blogging strategies!

57 Comments:

Blogger endsleye said...

After reading the first act of Macbeth and the first few chapters on Lord of the Flies, I have seen serveral instances of evil. The evil isn't really physical but emotions such a jealous and angry. I have also witnessed weakness in characters such as doubting and rethinking plots. There has also been some physical violence, such as in Macbeth, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are ploting to kill Ducan and in Lord of the Flies, Jack is hunting pig to eat.
I don't having any other questions.

Fri Sep 08, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

So far with the progression of these two books, evil is lurking in the backgrounds just waiting to strike. It has shown itself a in tidbits through the actions of the main characters. Jack has already started to dislike Ralph in Lord of the Flies and the serpent has shown itself(whatever it may be). In Macbeth, there is a plot against the king and it is being carried out by one of the king's most trusted companions. Clearly, evil will show itself soon and when it does, situations are going to get tough.

Fri Sep 08, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

Evil is very different depending on your perspective. To build from Endsley E's comment, Jack probably does not think he is evil for hunting the pig, but what does the pigg think? He had a taste of this when he said it felt like he was being hunted himself.

-have to go now...I will add more later.

Fri Sep 08, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

Troughout the first few chapters of Macbeth and Lord of the Flies there as been a lo tof evil. There has been cruelty in L.O.F. when all of the kids on the island are really mean to Piggy. its not quite evil, but it is really mean. In Macbeth there has been many evil things. From Macbeth slicing a man in half to the witches trying to cause evil there has been a ton. Lady Macbeth plotting to kill King Duncan and Macbeth backstabbing King Duncan, a man that has trust in him. I will finish later i have to take movie notes.....

Fri Sep 08, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger Rileys said...

I can see by comparing both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, that evil is being brought out of once civilized and ordered human beings by ambition of wanted power over others. Macbeth wants the power that is granted to a king, and Jack wants power over the other stranded children. Both want to become rulers over others and hold power.

Fri Sep 08, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

I've decided that evil is entirely relative. On Crosby's blog, we discussed what makes a person a traitor or a hero, and the general consensus was that it all depends on your point of view. As different people have different morals, "evil" can mean a number of things.

However, in literature, often the line between good and evil is very distinct. In Lord of the Flies, the borderline psychotic behaviour of some of the boys serves as an antithesis to the weaker, "good", characters, such as Piggy. In effect, they make the protagonists seem even more heroic.

Fri Sep 08, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

Evil plays a huge part in both The Lord of the Flies and Macbeth. In LOF, evil is represented by the beastie,which hasn't really presented itself yet,and Jack's new personality. Jack is starting to become very wild and barbaric. I think that this is the beginning of his emergence as an evil character. In Macbeth, evil is not necessarily shown through a person, but as an inatimate thing, such as when Lady Macbeth calls on the powers of evil to let her help Macbeth kill Duncan. However, evil can be somewhat represented through Lady Madbeth. As we have seen, she would be very willing to kill her own baby.
In our world today, evil can be seen with what is happening with radical muslims, or terrorists.

Fri Sep 08, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

I think that one thing symbolising evil that the people above me seem to have missed is the "snake thing" in Lord of the Flies. I also would say that it directly correlates to the witches in Macbeth. They are both international symbols of mistrust and evil. In the case of the books both things also have a very mythical context applied to them.

Fri Sep 08, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

I think that in Lord of the Flies, and Macbeth, evil comes where good is not present. Both Jack and Macbeth want power and when the opportunity is given to them, then they take it. They already are thinking about evil things, but when a time comes when they can gain power by doing those things, then evil comes in and takes over.

Fri Sep 08, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

As one well knows after reading the beginnings of these books, neither are very uplifting. Both are very grim and depressing, even early in the book! Evil plays a huge part in both of the books. Evil, in Lord of the Flies, is defined moreso as human nature than anything else. In other words, Lord of the Flies states that evil is in every human being and just needs a time to be able to erupt out. In Macbeth, however, evil is seen as somehthing that only a few people truly possess. These people then pass on the ideas of evil onto others, much like how Lady Macbeth pressures Macbeth into murder.

Fri Sep 08, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I noticed that both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies use serpents to represent evil. Josh talked about this earlier, but didn't go into much detail. The serpent in Macbeth is used as a symbol of the evilness of Lady Macbeth, while, although I'm not sure exactly what it means, the "beastie" in Lord of the Flies can symbolize both the scariness of the situation the boys on the island are facing or the uncontrolable desire for power that has manifested in both Ralph and Jack. Both plays also have characters who strive for power and don't care who they hurt in order to gain it.

Fri Sep 08, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

In both books there are signs of evil devloping in the plots. In Loard of the Flies there is jealousy and hardship, and in Macbeth there is death and murder.

Fri Sep 08, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

In both LOF and Macbeth, there has been mention of a serpent, or snake. In both, this is the symbol of evil, which makes sense because the serpent is the universal sign of evil. In LOF, the unknown snake on the island that was mentioned just before the kid with the scar dissapeared is the evil. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth actually says that she and Macbeth need to be the serpent under the flower.

In our world today, many people are being "serpents under a flower". In Iraq, Sadam Heusen used the image that he was trying to fix the government of Iraq as a reason to kill people. Relationships between friends, both international and locally can be "serpents under a flower". As was discussed in "Phony Faces", friends treat us differently when they are with different groups. Often times, it's hard to guess which "face" is the true face.

Fri Sep 08, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

I agree with laura b in that evil is coming through the bad sides of Macbeth and Jack. It's hard for both of them to accept the fact that someone else is in charge, that someone else is the leader. I think that instead of crawling all over the people who are lower (like Jack bullies Piggy), they should be nice and help those people because I bet in the end, these people might be the ones who really count.

Fri Sep 08, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger christa s said...

I agree with anna d in that the evil in both pieces of literature is defined as being part of human nature and only needs a chance to erupt and show its true colors.

In L.O.F., the boys, who were once normal kids, are starting to become more uncivilized and traces of evil are seen on the island. Jack has become obsessed with trying to kill pigs, and although this may not be seen as evil exactly, I think that it is part of Jack's progression into becoming more callous and uncivilized, and possibly evil. I also agree with everyone who has mentioned the snake theme, and how that is possibly a sign of evil to come.

In Macbeth, the evil is also shown as part of human nature. Macbeth, because of a prophecy that he will become king, has allowed his ambition to cloud his judgement and decides to kill King Duncan, although he is reluctant to do so. The evil in both works of literature is what shapes the plot in both stories.

Examples of evil in our own society are in the paper every day. Murderers, terrorists, robbers, abusive men or women, and tons of other things that I can't even think of right now. Just as evil in the stories shape the plot, the evil in our world shapes who we are. We can choose to be on the side of evil, or go against it.

Fri Sep 08, 04:35:00 PM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Evil is presented more in Macbeth right now than is in Lord of the Flies. In Macbeth, Macbeth talks about killing Duncan, but I don't really see the evil in him. The reason why I don't is because he has second thoughts and decides not to kill Duncan for a while. The real evil hides in Lady Macbeth. As we learned about her real personality, she's brutal and can manipulate Macbeth easily and she's the one now who really wants to kill Duncan.

Lord of the Flies though is different. Like Josh said, you can feel the evil in the air just waiting for the right moment. I'm not sure if I feel that I feel evil in the characters. I feel that they're mean and they're going crazy. I know that later, I will definitely feel evil spreading (since I've read the book before), but for as far as we've gotten, not much has developed. Jack, I just think he's a tad crazy from the sun and heat, not evil at this moment.

I find connections through the stories through the craziness that people are going through. I also found a connection between something else, but it's WAY later in the book, so I'll have to save it.

Evil related to the world today... Hm. Well one thing that I'd say that connects with Macbeth is jealousy. So many people are jealous of one another which can lead to chaos being caused.

Fri Sep 08, 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

I think that the role of evil in Macbeth is that Macbeth really wants to be king, mostly because the witches predicted that he would be. I think that eventually Macbeth will go to any length to make sure that prediction will come true. I also think that there is a role of evil in Piggy in Lord of the Flies. I think Piggy is getting really jealous that he was sort of a leader with Ralph but now Jack has taken his spot and I am not sure if Piggy would go to as extreme lengths as Macbeth to get that spot of leadership back.

Both of the books have two characters that are power thirsty and both want to be in a position of power and leadership, and that results in evil taking a part in that quest for power.

Sat Sep 09, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger adamb said...

I have seen a connection in these two books inthe way evil appears. In both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies evil appears as ambition. Macbeth is turned against whast he thinks is right because of his ambition to be king. In Lord of the Flies, Jack is turned cold and remorseless because of his wanting meat. He is also a jerk to Piggy because of his power with the kids.
And both wear masks to get what they want. Jack wears a physical mask to help camoflauge him from the pig whereas Macbeth wheres a more figurative mask which cloaks his desires from Duncan. The mask are neccesary to hide the evil.

Sat Sep 09, 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

I personally feel like Anna D. that Macbeth and LOF are trying to show that evil is prevalent is everyone. In Macbeth, every character from the extreme of Lady Macbeth to the witches has a varying degree of evil. Even Duncan has some wickedness in him; he had the Thane of Cawdor executed! LOF shows a similar concept. None of the people on the island are adults, but they are as malicious as grown ups. LOF is trying to show that we are all born vixenish. These ideas are contrary to what we hear in the media etc... that only mass murders, terrorists and the like are evil.

Sat Sep 09, 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger shaunam said...

In both books I think that the evil side of some characters shows because of something that they truly want. In Macbeth, macbeth is willing to murder all because of what he will gain by doing so. In Lord of The Flies, Jack's dark side shows when he kills a pig for the meat. If something is at stake, people will do anything to get it.
I also agree what Adam said about how Macbeth and Jack both wear masks so that they can preform what they are doing without feeling overly guilty.

People today tend to be very power hungry...as if that that would make them stronger. People all over the world are commanding evil acts to get what they want.

Sat Sep 09, 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

In Macbeth, evil is much more black and white, a person either is or isn't evil.For example, Lady Macbeth is a definite symbol of evil because of how persistent she is on killing Duncan.

In L.O.F. evil has shades of gray. It shows that people have the capability to turn evil at anytime, showing human nature.

Sat Sep 09, 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

I agree with the comparison between the serpent and the witches. The witches are the cause of Macbeth's ambition. They told him he would be king, and now he is being motivated to fulfill their prophecy. One of the reasons Ralph wants to get the shelters done is that the children are afraid of the island and what they don't know. They can feel carefree during the day, but at night, in the dark, they feel unprotected. The "beastie" whether it's real or not, is symbolic of this. This makes Ralph try harder to build a stable shelter, but nobody helps. It causes the argument with Jack and starts to show how they are splitting apart.
King Duncan placed absolute trust in Macbeth. Ever since they explored the island together, Ralph and Jack had been best friends. However, as they spent more and more time on the island, they began to show differences. Ralph wanted shelters, but Jack wanted to kill a pig. The conflict goes deeper than that though. They both want to be leaders. Ralph wanted to make the children feel safe and Jack wanted them to see him as the heroic hunter. Macbeth was probably willing to betray trust so he could be king. What will Jack be willing to do to have the power of the conch and be the leader of the group?

On an unrelated topic, I was noticing that the argument with Jack and the near rescue seemed to help Ralph sympathize with Piggy a little more. I think maybe there is slight possibility Ralph will start being nicer to him. If that were to happen, I wonder whether it would make the other kids respect Piggy more or make them lose respect for Ralph. Did anyone else have that thought?

Sat Sep 09, 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I agree with Zach F on his idea of the difference of evil in Lord of the Flies and in Macbeth. I think that the three witches are another example of evil in Macbeth because they tell people of their futures, but they confuse them in the way that they tell them. For example, when they tell Banquo that his children will be kings, that means that Banquo's family will probably end up being more powerful than Macbeth's, but Banquo doesn't understand what the witches are telling him.

In Lord of the Flies, they children think that the beastie is evil, but they do not know that for sure.

Sun Sep 10, 11:05:00 AM  
Blogger Mphair said...

There is very little in this world of ours that is actually EVIL. Bad, yes; wrong, yes; disgusting, yes. Maybe someone turned down the wrong path, or was lead by the wrong people, yes. but EVIL?

Evil is a stron word. One to be used in fantasy writing. Such as Lord Voldomort, or Sauron from Lord of the Rings.

I do not believe that there is any EVIL in Lord of the Flies or in Macbeth. Their actions or wishes or intents may be bad, but the characters themselves; I do not believe so.

Each character is human, and humans are loved, love other things, feel, laugh. Even Lady Macbeth has something going for her that would make Macbeth love her. Jack is obviously a strong leader, and all his chior members follow him. His parents also must have loved him.

There is very little that is fully and unconditionally EVIL. Things might be bad, or messed up, but most likely, not EVIL.

Sun Sep 10, 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger declanh said...

So far evil has appeared in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, but it has only shown in part. In Macbeth, flashes of evil have been seen throughout the plotting of Duncan's murder. Lady Macbeth actually calls on evil to help her, so it has obviously made appearances. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph and Jack have started to conflict a little. I think evil will show more than it already has later on in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies.

Sun Sep 10, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

I think that the sittuations that are occuring in LOTF can be easily related to our everyday lives. There is usually a leader in the group of people that we encounter everyday. In LOTF, Jack is obviously a natural leader. He is used to being the leader and making big decisions for a group. Ralph also shows many leadership skills throughout the first part of the story. He is the kind of leader who knows he could be a leader, but just lets the person who is more comfortable being the leader take charge. In addition, I think that Piggy has even shown some leadership skills in the story. Even thoug he is very shy and hardly ever voices his opinions, I think he has some good traits of a leader. He is the kind of leader that listens to other people and puts the clues together to figure things out. The only thing about Piggy is he lets Ralph and Jack shoot down all of his ideas before he is able to apply them. If he were just to get past some of his shyness and selfconciousness, he would have many great ideas about what the boys could be doing and how they could be acting on the island. In todays world, we all follow leaders. Sometimes our parents are our leaders, sometimes our teachers, and sometimes our friends. We all follow someone. For example, in a group of friends it is easy to pick out the leaders. The leaders usually influence the group the most. They make the major decisions about everything that the group does. Sometimes this can be a good sittuation. If the leader is fair and respects the ideas and opinions of everyone else in the group. However, sometimes this can be a bad sittuation. If a leader is leading the group by fear or force, or just simply doesnt care about the other members in a group, the other group members can feel intimidated by that leader. This is almost the kind of leader that Jack reminds me of. It seems like the other boys are afraid of him and it doesnt really seem like he is open to new opinions.

I think that evil in LOTF can be seen from many different angles. The tension between all of the "leaders" of the boys could be considered evil because it is slowly pulling the boys apart, it seems. And when you are stranded on an uninhabbited island, it is best not to have enemies because you all need to be working together. Also the "snake things" could also be another form of evil. However, we do not yet know if these things actually exist.

Sun Sep 10, 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

Both of the books that we are reading have characters that are power hungry. They cause confusion between characters and they try to take over with their own ideas. There is also weakness in the characters that create more problems. The evil is clearly shown in Macbeth when Macbeth comes up with the idea to kill Duncan and when Lady Macbeth encourages him. In LOF Jack wants to be the leader and seems to want to do anything to become it. His choir supports him in his actions.

Sun Sep 10, 02:13:00 PM  
Blogger chelseah said...

After reading act 1, and the beginning of LOF, I have made some connections. I have come to realize that there are some sources of evil in each story. In Macbeth, I believe that the face of evil is Lady Macbeth, because she is the one that has had the most changes in mood. Also, she is the one that is really pushing for Duncan to be killed. This does make me wonder why everyone still sees her as an innocent face, when really she has such a split personality.
In LOF, I see the face of evil being Jack, although I do think that is a little early to decide. I think this because he is the one that portrays the mist jealousy towards the other boys on the island. Also, he is the one that is the most anxious to lead the boys, and have everyone do what they want him to.
In each story, I have noticed that the face of evil emerges when there is a situation under pressure, or they have to make a quick decision. In both stories, the evil emerges every once in a while, it is not all the time.
Just like in real life, I see evil emerge at different times, and then you can truly see who that person really is. Only in certain times, can you see the face of evil emerge through what you think is reality.

Sun Sep 10, 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

I agree with mphair. The characters in Macbeth and LOF are not evil. However, I think the role of evil is represented by their actions. Macbeth is planning to murder his king who is also his first cousin. To me, that could be considered "evil" but I don't think Macbeth is an all-around evil guy. Also, in LOF, Jack basically becomes a savage and is obsesses with killing a pig. Even though I do not like Jack as a character, I don't think he is evil, his actions are evil and violent. One connection I have made between the two books was that on page 55 of LOF the author talks about Ralph and Jack who are "...baffled in love and hate..." meaning they are good friends but they both have a need for powe and hate each other for that need. This reminded me of Macbeth because although he may not love King Duncan, Macbeth respects him but is conflicted because he wants to be king.

One parallel that I drew between our world and Lord of the Flies was that the boys don't get along because they don't take the time to understand each other. In our world, there seems to be conflict because we don't undestand different cultures, religions, lifestyles and other kinds of diversity.

Sun Sep 10, 03:03:00 PM  
Blogger Aylar said...

Evil is definitly a force to consider in both MAcbeth and in LOF The characters are not evil but there actions are. Jack is becoming more and more violent about the whole killing the pig thing but that doesn't make him a bad guy. Macbeth is also obbessing with power, he want's it badly enough to kill Duncan. This action is evil but Macbeht is not in my opinion evil.

Sun Sep 10, 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger saram said...

I agree completely with endsleye. She said that the signs of evil are not so much physical, but emotional. There are many examples of this in both books. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth and Macbeth are coming up with a plan to kill Duncan. Lady Macbeth points out that you must act innocent and hide your emotions so that you do not get caught. The physical aspect is not so hard once people think you are innocent. In LOTF, Jack is showing signs of evil. He is hunting Pig to eat, and you can also tell that he doesn’t like Ralph. The fact that he is hunting Pig is physical, but disliking someone is almost all emotional.

I don’t have any other questions right now.

Sun Sep 10, 03:49:00 PM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

I believe that in both stories, there is some underlaying evil that is just waiting to strike. In LOTF, there are many things that seem to elude to the coming of evil. In Act I of Macbeth, Lady Macbeth and the witches seem to portray an evil sight.Though I don't believe Lady Macbeth is evil; just excessively ambitious. What evil can happen in both of these stories? What does the foreshadowing tell us about the future?

Sun Sep 10, 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyA said...

In both literatures Macbeth and LOF evil is there but has not come out big quite yet. In Macbeth the evil is the planning and the soon to be follow-up on the death of the King. In LOF I believe that an evil creature or perhaps the Lord of the Flies is going to be the main point of evil in the book.
I believe in our world today evil progresses as time progresses just as the books.

Sun Sep 10, 04:02:00 PM  
Blogger AleeA said...

To me, the role of evil can come in so many forms that it is hard to describe them all. When relating evil to the first act of Macbeth and LOF, it can be described as anyone or anything that goes against people and there ways of life. Evil creates chaos, sadness, and hardship, which is clearly demonstrated in Macbeth and LOF. Between the two books, a few characters have similar personalities, which are involved with evil. For example, Lady Macbeth and Jack are a lot alike, for they both have a really dark side. When they want something, they do whatever is necessary to get it. Jack is an interesting character, for in the first few chapters of LOF, he is more like Macbeth, for he says he’ll do things, but can never bring himself to actually do them. An example of this was when he said he would kill a pig, but when he actually tried to, he couldn’t bring himself to do it. In Macbeth, Macbeth says he will kill King Duncan , but wants to back out of it at the last minute. Whether or not he actually does commit the crime is still to be determined however. On the other hand, there are people like Piggy in LOF and King Duncan in Macbeth, who are very trusting and naïve. They are very smart people, and have a sense of leadership about them. There are many character ties between both books.
There is evil in the world at all times, no matter what. Specifics on this evil can range from racial problems to how animals are treated in some shelters and pounds. Evil is determined by so many things, making the list of evil things happening in our world endless. There are so many ties to be made between evil and events in our To me, the role of evil can come in so many forms that it is hard to describe them all. world today.

Sun Sep 10, 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger AleeA said...

Although most of my questions were answered in class the other day, talking about evil has made me think up some new ones. In LOF, the little children complain about the snake thing...do you think this thing exists and if it does, if it is evil? Also, what happened to the first little boy who spoke up about the thing? He just suddenly vanished and hasn't been heard from since. Do you think the snake thing had anything to do with his disappearance? I know that these are questions that don't have a real definite answer yet, but I am just curious to see what others have to say about them.

Sun Sep 10, 05:11:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sun Sep 10, 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sun Sep 10, 05:18:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I agree with many others along the lines that in Macbeth and Lord of the Flies the role of evil is power and jealousy. In Macbeth, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are becoming so power hungry, and Macbeth is starting to show jealousy because he realizes he is not going to have the power he wants. In LOF Ralph and Jack are trying to take the role as leader, but both of them can't seem to be the leader at the same time or agree on a leader. Also, today many countries are trying to gain more power than others, and become jealous when they don't have the same power or status.

Sun Sep 10, 05:22:00 PM  
Blogger jess b said...

The role of evil that is played in LOF and in Macbeth; I think is completely different.

In LOF the role of evil is physical: it is the snake, the island, the fruit, the cliffs themselves. In this book all the things that are evil and are creating fear aren't necesarily the ideas that the kid's are having or their feelings; but, what the island and the physical features are doing to them that is making them become more and more nervous and fearful.

In Macbeth the evil isn't shown through physical things; but, in the ideas and feelings that the characters are having. The idea that one man could kill another who both have great respect for each other is where the evil comes into play.

How the evil will effect the story line I am not sure yet, but soon we should find the exact role of evil and what it's intents are.

Sun Sep 10, 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger alexm said...

I think that the evils in the two stories are different in some ways and the same in others. In LOTF, the evil resides in the boys primal insticts as the novel wears on. As they realize more and more that its going to be a long time before they are rescued, they become more and more amimal like. The evil also resides in the island, with the beastie and other things.
In Macbeth, the evil is also witihin the people, but they are not under the pressure of living on a completely uninhabited island. Their evil comes from power lust, and, in the witches case, from discontent at human content (if you can understand that at all).

Sun Sep 10, 07:05:00 PM  
Blogger tanal said...

Evil is portrayed in both Macbeth and LOF but in totaly different ways. In LOF evil is portrayed by Jack, mainly when he is killing the pig for meat. Also he dislikes Ralph and you can tell that by what he does and says around him. He knows that everyone has to work together but he doesn't want to follow Ralphs directions. In Macbeth evil is portrayed by Macbeth and Lady Macbeth planning a way to kill the king for the power themselves.

Sun Sep 10, 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger elyse h said...

In what we have read so far of Macbeth and LOF there have been hints of evil, or hints that it is going to come soon but of what has happened so far i don't think any of it was full blown evil. Like people have already said it seems almost evil that jack is hunting the pig, but i think more evil is going to come out of how he feels like he himself is being hunted. In Macbeth the plans to kill king Duncan are evil but they havent all been followed through with quite yet. Evil in the world around us is always happening, but i think the evil in the two books we are reading is so far just border line evil.

Sun Sep 10, 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

I like what Madison said about the leadership skills in Jack and in Ralph. What I noticed is that Jack is really good at intimidating and controlling a small group of kids. Ralph however can captivate the whole group as long as they are in a meeting. As soon as they dissipate he has no control. That is when Jack has the advantage.

Sun Sep 10, 08:24:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

Oh, thats not good. My post is not here.

The basic outline of what I said is that I think evil is the central cause of conflict. If all there was was good, it would be really boring. But evil causes the strife between characters and the world and nature and other elements. The combination of good battling evil is what creates every conflict. This is why evil is such a powerful force.

Sun Sep 10, 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

I really liked what someone said about evil being black and white in Macbeth, but in LOF it's more gray.
To me this really is true. I think that in Macbeth the characters (except for Macbeth) are pretty easy to read. For example, LAdy Macbeth is calling upon other evil things to help her in the task of killing, and King Duncan just seems to be the picture of innocence. In LOF however, you can't really tell who is really the face of evil. Even the beastie is cloaked in shadows, and for all the boys know could be an innocent deer. Jack shows signs of the ability to become evil, but at the same time Ralph could be the evil one. For all we know all the boys on the island are evil, or at least the potential to become so.
One question I had was what are the "creepers" they keep mentioning in the LOF? Also why is Piggy so indecisive? Could it be that he is afraid of the outcomes of his ideas, and what were to happen if he were to try to take power from Ralph.

Sun Sep 10, 09:23:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyH said...

I am going to have to disagree with what kimmy C said about evil being black and white in macbeth, because we dont really know who is really evil, i mean sure Lady Macbeth is pretty evil but what about the witches? they essentially started the whole killing spree with their prophesy. I think that the evil in both books manefests itself in the desire for ultimate power. In LOF it is Jack vs. Ralph wanting to be the leader, while in Macbeth it is Lady Macbeth and Macbeth himself vying for the power that comes with being king. This may be a long shot but do you think that in each story there is an object that thrusts each character into the race for control? i mean in Macbeth it would be the prophesy that spurred Macbeth to plot to kill the king, but in lord of the flies i am having trouble finding an object to make the boys want power but it could possibly be the conch shell, since it plays a pretty important role in boys lives, and it is what made most of the boys like Ralph, by seeing him blowing the conch shell. Him blowing the Conch shell is also what brought all the boys together, and since it was Ralph who called the meeting together he was kind of in charge of it, putting him in an automatic position of power.
Also, people keep asking what the 'creepers' are in LOF and i think that they are just the vines and undergrowth that usually inhabit a dense forested area. anyway, thats all for tonight, see you all tomorrow!

Sun Sep 10, 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger briang said...

I deffinitly see evil appear in both Macbeth and LOF, and as many people have already said, I see it as being similar and completely different. For example, I see them as being similar in the fact that evil is evil. Macbeth and lady Macbeth are obviously not acting good because they are plotting to kill the king, which i would consider that to be evil. In LOF Jack is claiming that a certain evil is taking over him to kill the pigs. In this regard I see the evils as being the same. However, the kind of evil that appears to me in Macbeth is one that is clear and is litterally told straight to your face. Lady Macbeth is planning to kill the king, she has these evil thoughts, and it is all told to you. You understand what the evil is exactly. In LOF, the evil is more of one that the reader needs to interpret and infer. There is no set in stone that Jack is evil, or that Ralph is evil, you need to infer that more than you need to in Macbeth. I like how others have said that in Macbeth it is black and white while in LOF it is grey, thats excellent, I agree completely.
A connection I see between the evils in the two works of litterature is that in Macbeth, Lady Macbeth calls upon spirits or gods to take over her body and to help her commit these evils, so as that it is not really her doing the evils. In LOF Jack does a similar thing when he is hunting. He sort of calls upon a different side to him to become evil and to kill. Thats really the only connection I can make so far.
As for parallels to our own world, I think evils can be seen from things as simple as stealing to terrism. I don't know if they actually call upon spirits or have another side of them take over themsleves, but it is very clear to me that evil is present in our world.

Sun Sep 10, 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

As many people have stated, the serpant in both stories seems to be the main symbol for evil. However, evil is seen in more and more people as the stories progress. At the begining of Macbeth, evil is seen in the traitors during the war, but nothing really seriously evil. But then the witches are thrown into the plot, and they are obvious signs of evil in the story, the way that they are mysterious and like to cause confusion and caios. After they tell Macbeth of the prophecy, they put the idea into his and Lady Macbeth's minds to do something evil, as "the serpant under the flower". Lady Macbeth and Macbeth, I think, are not evil in their own, but are just having evil work through them. If it had not been for the witches they never would have even thought to kill King Duncan.
As for Lord of the Flies, no one starts out acting evil or appearing as so. Yes, Ralph acts mean to Piggy, but he doesn't seem flat out nasty. But later on, Jack acts as if he thinks he should be idolized and, as a Christian, this doesn't seem exactly rightteous. He also seems a bit overly mean (more than normal teasing and making fun of as most kids would and do in the story) toward Piggy. He snaps at him in what seems to be an overly angry tone that was quite unnessesary and abnormal. He also has an odd taste for hunting alone now that they have been on the island for a decent amount of time and what is described as a look of evil in his eyes at the thought of finally killing a pig. A sudden and stunning thought came to me at that last sentence; What if Piggy gets on Jack's nerves a bit too much and he's the 'pig' Jack wants? Its a very frightening thought, but the way Macbeth is going, would it be surprising since we are reading both of them at the same time? Could there be any other similarities between the two books, other than evil and the thought of "Challenging the System"? In LOTF, There is also the mention of the "beastie" snake thing. How might this be the back bone of evil in the story?
All this talk of evil is kind of scaring me at the thought of how much evil is going on in our own lifes, whether that be the unkown secrets people have, those scary stories of kidnap and abuse and murder and accidents on the news, or the little (or not so little) fibs and lies we tell. I can't help but take a religious perspective of evil and good in our own lives, so i don't have much more to say on this front except that it is very apparent in our world, especially as we remember September 11th on the 5th anniverary of it on Monday. Also, I would like to end on a high note by asking the question of, How in the books and in our own lives do we fight it and what good do we see happening?

Sun Sep 10, 11:20:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyH said...

Oh snap! KathrynT, you totally freaked me out with the whole piggy and jack thing. dang, thats really creepy if it happens though! Its a good point even if it is kind of depressing. I wonder if the Evil that Jack seems to be hiding behind is evil enogh to make him kill another person?

Mon Sep 11, 08:26:00 PM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

Kathrynt. I disagree with you on the point that no one was evil at the beginning of the Lord of the Flies. I think that Jack was evil (if not as extremely evil) in the beginning. I first got the impression that he was overly mean and violent (which could be considered evil) when he pulled out a knife. What kind of sweet boy carries around a knife? Plus, he was a very cruel leader of the choir. He worked them until he wanted to stop (at the very beginning, all the boys are walking tiredly towards the meeting, they want to stop but Jack won't let them). This I consider evil because it is taking control over someone.

Mon Sep 11, 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Well, it seems to me that Jack himself might not be evil enough to really do something so terrible. His character seems to be the mean boy in class that just really wanted attention, so bosses everyone else around and does strange things. But it also seems that there may be more to it than that. The island appears to be bringing out the strange thoughts in him and making him snap. What do you think it is that makes him act in the way he does? Could the island have some mysterious affect on people or do you think it symblolizes something? Could the island represent evil in some way?

Mon Sep 11, 10:48:00 PM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Here is an addition to my last statement.
However, a prediction is that something else, such as the circumstances, the "beastie", or the island could push him toward doing something as evil as killing. By himself Jack might not do it. After all, he is just a kid.

Mon Sep 11, 10:52:00 PM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

I think the role of evil in LOF is just what resides inside of the boys and the thoughts that they have. Like when Jack had the thought to kill the pig, but then had second thoughts because he didn't want to have to see the blood. The same is kind of true for Macbeth as well because he's always thinking about how badly he wants the power of the throne. Yet he was having second thoughts because he had earned the trust of his friend and hedidn't wnat to loose it.

Tue Sep 12, 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

Evil is a figment of human imagination, which is why it exists only, as mphair said, in fantasy works. Humans describe things they don't understand or things that are different as evil. Wild animals, like sharks and snakes, have been "evil" for centuries. Behaviors that humans don't understand are evil, too. Human nature doesn't see why other people get sad about some occurances, so they deem those happenings evil. Depression is an evil in our world. Sicknesses and diseases have been "the devil appearing in his worshippers" for centuries, like during the Salem Witch Trials. What will happen the next time a new disease or unexplained behavior emerges?

Tue Sep 12, 11:06:00 PM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

Kathrynt, I think Jack would do something so terrible as killing someone if he were not in his right mind. I also think that, yes, he is that kind of mean kid that bosses everyone around, and maybe because of that that's why he is turning into a mad person basically. It's very interesting what you said about the island, and how it's making him snap. Now that you mention it kathrynt, i have noticed that not only Jack's, but Ralph's behavior has changed. Jack has become obsessed with killing a pig. But also Ralph has changed from the laid back and happy boy into a true leader. He is more concerned about what is going on that he was at first. I think that an island could do that to you. I mean, if you were stranded, would you start acting different? I also agree with you kathrynt that the island might resemble evil itself because it is isolating these boys, causing strange and new behavior, and contains the myteries of the "beastie."
Lastly, just because Jack is a kid doesn't mean he can't kill. In other countries, kids are fighting wars, and using weapons to kill others in battles. Kids can kill, it's not they're incapable.

Wed Sep 13, 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I feel evil is much more prevalent in Macbeth up to this point. In Macbeth, there is murder for power, deception and betrayal among others. In Lord of the Flies, there are childish quarrels. There is definetly a power struggle in each. The characters in Lord of the Flies seem very competent at surviving and leadership, but to me they seem very immature, which some how makes them seem less evil to me. In Macbeth, the characters are adults and should, in theory, have more sense not to committ evil acts, not saying that's what happens. Basically, I believe the evil shown in Macbeth is true evil, while the evil shown so far in Lord of the Flies is not quite as evil. An example of evil from Macbeth is obviously the assassination of King Duncan, while it is more complicated in LOF. I believe the "beastie" symbolizes both the fear the boys have of not being rescued and the conflict over power. I think these power struggles are readily visible all over the world, even in America. People constantly strive to better their social positions and climb up the ladder to prosperity, although some are more daring and ambitious when it comes to climbing that ladder.

Thu Sep 14, 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

I have to absolutely agree with jessb on this one because the roles in the two reading are different, but still symbolic.

In LOF and Macbeth, the role of evil is major. Without it, the plot of the play would never have progressed to killing Duncan and so on from there. However, in the play, the evil is not as straight forward as coming out and saying “this is evil.” You have to read closely between the lines and be able to understand what the characters are saying and you can soon see that they are not simply speaking of an object, but of the evil that that object, or even action, represent.

In LOF, the evil is just not hidden at all. This is probably because the author wanted you to be able to visualize it. You need to be able to visualize things in this book, in my mind, because sometimes the author can sort of babble on and when you see theses things you can tell what they represent not only by the way he puts them into the lines but by the way he can make you see them just by his description. I think this really ads to the plot because it shows you the evil rather than having to have you figure it out for yourself.

I think the evil will affect the two stories dramatically because with that evil comes the desire for power and with that comes controversy and tragedy.

Mon Sep 18, 09:29:00 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home