LOF question period 2
What are some examples of relationships between the characters? What is the building block of these relationships and what is breaking them apart? Describe an instance when you had a relationship with a friend that fell apart. Why did it fall apart? Can you personally connect to what is happening to the boys on the island.
posted by annes @ 11:34 AM
29 Comments:
In LOF, Ralph is in a charge, he is the parent figure. Jack on the other hand is the rebellious son. Whatever Ralph wants to do Jack does the opposite, in part to annoy Ralph.
(Quote from pg. 64 Ralph talking to Jack about his actions.)
"I was chief and you are going to do what I said. ... -then you go off hunting and let the fire out."
While this is not a personal connection, I feel that this is what happens with many teenagers' relationship with their parents. Their parents feel that they know what is best and will not listen to the teenager's rationale. In turn, the teenager does not want to listen to the parent's logic. I think that her Golding is trying to show both sides of an adult teenager conflict using the boys on the island.
The biggest relationship I noticed was the one between Piggy and Ralph. At first it seems like they aren't really friends at all. Then later when Ralph realizes Piggy's usefullness, he starts to appreciate him and stand up for him. I'll admit to having done that to a person before. I've had friends that I don't really notice until I need them. It sounds terrible but after that the friendship is so much more meaningful. I think that Jack and Piggy will end up really close friends.
The changes in friendships and alliances in this book is very interesting. At the beginning of the book, one could describe the relationship between Ralph and Jack as that of a mutual respect more than that of a friendship. They aren't truly friends, but each amires the other.
Later on in the book, the relationship changes between Jack and Ralph. I believe that this change is caused by Jack himself changing. No longer is he interested in survival; he's more interested in killing. Ralph, however, still believes in survival. This leads to obvious strains.
Another interesting relationship is the one between Ralph and Piggy. At the beginning of the book, Ralph seems to be nonchalant to Piggy. He doesn't really care what Piggy thinks of him or what happens to PIggy. Frankly, he could care less. But as tensions become higher between Piggy and Jack, Ralph realizes that Piggy is a good person, and that he himself was being untrue to himself in NOT defending him. So, Ralph starts being kind to Piggy because he doesn't want to be like Jack.
This relationship between Piggy and Ralph can be used metaphorically, also. The "democracy" realizes that "the people" are important when it sees what "dictatorships" can do to them.
In Lord of The Flies, I think that Jack and Ralph had begun to have a relationship because they know that they are all each other have right now. Also Piggy knows that they are the strong leaders of the group and Piggy is striving for people to see that he can be like that as well even though he has yet to prove himself worthy. I think that Piggy wants this leadership because he is always used for things, such as his specs and starting a fire. He is the kid that always gets made fun of and is always trying to fit in. That is what he is doing now. In a sense he is working his way from the bottom of the totem pole to the top.
I have never had a really important friendship that has fallen apart, and I feel lucky that that has yet to happen. But, I have seen instances in which there are the "popular" people and there is that one misfit that really wants to be apart of that group just like Piggy trying to fit in with Ralph and Jack. What I don't understand why people want to be apart of a group that was mean to them before, and if the manage to become part of that group, they have gained what? Friends that were rude to you before? Friends that resemble Macbeth by backstabbing you?
In Lord of The Flies, I think that Jack and Ralph had begun to have a relationship because they know that they are all each other have right now. Also Piggy knows that they are the strong leaders of the group and Piggy is striving for people to see that he can be like that as well even though he has yet to prove himself worthy. I think that Piggy wants this leadership because he is always used for things, such as his specs and starting a fire. He is the kid that always gets made fun of and is always trying to fit in. That is what he is doing now. In a sense he is working his way from the bottom of the totem pole to the top.
I have never had a really important friendship that has fallen apart, and I feel lucky that that has yet to happen. But, I have seen instances in which there are the "popular" people and there is that one misfit that really wants to be apart of that group just like Piggy trying to fit in with Ralph and Jack. What I don't understand why people want to be apart of a group that was mean to them before, and if the manage to become part of that group, they have gained what? Friends that were rude to you before? Friends that resemble Macbeth by backstabbing you?
I agree with Lane C. I think it is interesting to watch how the relationship has changed. Ralph didn't like Piggy until he realized that Piggy was smart and had good ideas. I also think that the relationships between the characters change depending on what's going on. Everyone generally gets along fairly well until a problem comes up, and everyone believes that they have the best solution. I also see the conflict between Ralph and Jack as a symbol of the conflict between the boys and the island. Ralph needs Jack to hunt and keep the fire going while Ralph tries to keep control of the situation. The boys need the island and it's resources for shelter and food. I think they were extremely lucky that they crashed on the island instead of out at see. If that would have happened, none of them probably would have survived. But, what if they crashed on the island for a reason? I think there is more going on than we can see, I just don't know what it is. This theory is supported by the strange being that arrived by jumping out of an airplane. I don't understand it's purpose.
As for personally conecting what is happenening in the story, I recently had a group project in which another group member and I(who shall remain nameless) fought constantly over who was right or not. It's kind of like the conflict between Jack and Ralph. In the end I ended up trusting a piece of information the individual said they had looked up, when in reality, they hadn't really. Ralph trusted Jack to keep the fire burning, and Jack let him down, just asa in my experience.
One relationship is between Jack and Ralph. At first they were allies because they were the oldest boys of the group and had both emerged as leaders and needed support from one another. But later when Jack appoints his own group of hunters, he doesn't need Ralph's support anymore and instead of appreciating Ralph as an equal who is facing the same burdens, looks at Ralph in jealousy and disdain.
Another relationship, as everyone else has said, is between Ralph and Piggy. After Ralph realizes that Jack is turning against him, he turns to Piggy for his ideas as well as for his support and undying trust. I agree with Lane C. in that the two will end up being good friends, or at least allies against Jack.
I can relate to the breaking up of relationships that is taking place on the island. A girl that was my best friend until 6th grade suddenly changed schools and we lost touch, although we said that we would call each other everyday. We went to the same church so we saw each other once a week, but it wasn't the same.
I have also seen all the relationships mentioned by everyone else, but since I don't like repitition as much as the next person, I am going to give a new relationship.
I noticed that Simon is like Piggy in a way. He is a misfit. He is nice to everyone, whereas the other boys are mean. I think Simon is different from Piggy in that he is not trying to fit in. He does his own thing, but he is always the last to leave something. He has the qualities that can often be seen in a shy person: nicer to everyone, make friends with outcasts, and they don't follow a particular group, or they follow the group that has less people.
I, unlike other people, have had several experiences where good friendships have fallen apart. I am a nerd and am different, so I fall into the group of people that are outside the group of popular kids and who sometimes want to be part of them. several of my good friends in grade school, and one of my best friends, wanted to be in the popular group, and when they made it, they changed so much, we stopped hanging out together.
As many other people here think, I think that Ralph and Piggy is one of the most obvious relationships. In the beginning Ralph ignored Piggy and now he's starting to be like him. I seem to think that Ralph isn't really the "buddy" kind of person. He's a real loner as we've learned and he's a leader. There might be some reasoning behind why Ralph is being so nice to Piggy.
Also, there is Piggy and Jack's relationship. As Jack becomes more bloodthirsty, he releases all his anger on Piggy which caused Piggy to finally crack. It turns violent when Jack punches Piggy in the stomach! There will be more things to become between them where things will get worse!
I really don't think that Piggy is a leader because he was told what to do and what to do all of his life and this is pretty mucsh the first time where he's not told if something is right or wrong.
The one thing that is breaking everyone apart is anarchy. They're allowed to do anything that they want now and they're all turning into savages, what they know in the real world has left them.
I have had frienships fall apart and the main thing is trust. Especially in middle school, everyone wants to know more and the pressure begins to build up.
I can sort of relate to the relationships in the story, but only kind of. Other than that, not really.
Though I see many relationships in LOF, I think the most obvious ones are between Ralph and Piggy, Piggy and Jack, and Ralph and Jack. I agree with lane and Kari that at the beginning of the book, the relationship between Piggy and Ralph was not a positive one. Ralph didn't listen to what Piggy had to say and to Ralph, Piggy was just an annoyance. Now, Ralph realizes that he needs Piggy, Piggy knows he needs Ralph, and their relationship between each other has become more positive. Piggy trusts and respects Ralph and constantly looks to Ralph to help him or protect him, especially when Jack get after him. Ralph needs Piggy because Piggy is the brain of the group. Piggy knows what they need to do and brings the group back down to earth with what he says, however, Piggy does not always get to say we he has to say.
Between Ralph and Jack, the relationship is, like Anna said, mutual. They are not friends, and we can see this by their constant arguing. Jack knows Ralph is the leader, but he is hungry to become leader himself, and as far as i can tell Jack has a rebellious side to him. I would not be surprised if something happened between them. But, I believe Jack needs Ralph because Jack is out of control and Ralph does his best to keep him in line. Ralph needs Jack in the sense that Jack hunts for the group.
The relationship between Piggy and Jack is a complex one. They do not speak often, however, when they do it is a rumble. Jack is clearly stronger and has more authority than Piggy and he takes advantage of that. Jack virtually hates Piggy and Piggy feels the same towards Jack. It has been the same relationship the entire book.
The building blocks for these relationships are trust and respect. Piggy trusts Ralph, Ralph trusts Piggy. Piggy respects Ralph, as does Jack. What seems to be breaking these apart is simply that they have lost these two aspects for one another. Clearly Piggy has no respect for Jack and does not trust him, and vise versa. Jack is losing respect for Ralph, and Ralph is losing trust in Jack. The fact that these aspects are dying out is tearing these people apart. But, as these aspects grow stronger in some cases, they are pulled together.
I had a relationship with a friend once that fell apart in this same way. This friend had no respect for my ideas and didn't care what I wanted to do. In the end, we went our separate ways because for a relationship to work, you need to respect one another, equally. Though this is not an instance where I was stranded on an island in the middle of nowhere, I can relate to the boys, especially Ralph and Jack. They are following the same path as I did. They are losing respect for one another and in the end it will disappear completely. Their relationship is doomed to failure.
Jack and Ralph in Lord of the Flies share a very unstable relationship that could be harmful to those on the rest of the island. Once again, their conflicts are based around trust. Ralph trusts Jack to get the job done with hunting and the keeping of the fire but Jack continues to let Ralph down. Jack keeps pulling on the reins to see how far he can go before Ralph finally steps in and does something about it. As these two are the leaders of the entire group and they cannot even get along, then the group is in for a rough road as this book continues.
Ralph and Jack in LOF form a relationship on the first day when they explore the island. They formed a special bond that no one else sees but them. But once Jack forgets to keep the fire going, they lose trust in each other and start tumbling downwards. In 6th grade I had this friend, and we became really good friends but we got in a huge fight and she pretty much turned the whole school against me because she was "popular" We weren't friends then again until 8th grade when we had some same classes and we got over our problem in 6th grade. I really don't have any personal connections to the boys on the island because I don't have friend issues or lack of trusting and everything that goes on at the island.
adriana g brings up a good point. everyone can see that piggy, jack, and ralph have a pretty demented relationship but the relationship between ralph and simon is very interesting. I think that ralph picked simon because he wanted a friend. Piggy and Jack are turning out to be pretty shallow so ralph is trying, as most people would, to find a true friend who will stand by him, and although Simon is the guy who everyone laughed at Ralph can see that he is a good person. I dont see anything really breaking apart the relationship between Simon and Ralph, but i think that Ralph and Jack will soon become rivals. Piggy seems to be too much of a popularity moocher to stand up to Ralph, so i think that he will continue to put up with Ralphs abuse to avoid work. It seems like Ralph and Jack will be split up because of their true personalities. They are both leaders, and when put in a situation where there is a position of power available leaders dont tend to get along well. I believe that their lust for power will infinitely break them, and consequently the rest of the boys into groups. I think it will be really interesting to see how the social balance shifts and what causes that shift.
I have had only one friendship truly fall apart, the rest have just sort of drifted apart. This one friendship was shaky to begin with athough we were best friends. Basically what happened is that we grew up and we believed in different things. She got into drugs and hanging out with some sketchy people and I, well didn't. I cant say i can connect to what is happening to the boys on the island because although i have friends who are leaders as well as me, we never let our friendship fall apart, it just gets rough for a while until we get over ourselves.
There is a very important relationship between Jack and Ralph, obviously. And I think the building block is responsibility. They both do their job. But this is breaking down because Jack let the fire out, thus failing to do his. I had a friendship fall apart because I finally could not stand the other person undesirable traits, such as total dishonesty and being annoying. I think Ralph has gottten to the point where he can't stand Jacks obssesion with hunting when he lets the fire out.
I agree with ben h. The relationship between Ralph and Jack is very important. The building blocks for their relationship was their leadership skills and their first experience on the mountain together. The relationship between Jack and Ralph is breaking apart because they both have a need for power. Jack wants to be chief and even though he hides it, he wants to over throw Raplh because that is who he is. Although Ralph is not as obssessed with controling everyone around him, he still takes his responsibility very seriously and does not want Jack to take over. I had a friendship where it fell apart because we grew apart. We were two really different people and after a while we just stopped being friends. We don't really even acknowlege each other anymore. We were just too different and had different friends. I find it really hard to relate to Lord of the Flies because not only am I not, ever was or plan to be stranded on an island, I am not a boy. This story has really made me realize how different boys are from girls. They handle conflict differently and live their life differently. For instance, I don't know if I would name a chief to lead me if I were stranded on an island. But anyway, I can't really personally relate to LOF.
Jack And Ralph had this special relationship that formed the minute they met. it seemed that it was a relationship that no one else had, but Piggy wish he had a bond like that with Ralph. You can tell because he trys so hard to make peace with Ralph. Jack and Ralph's relationship is starting to break though ever since jack found out that Ralph isn't going to let Jack take over or share the power with Ralph and Jack doesn't trust Ralph as much anymore. This reminds me of a time in 5th grade(that might seem like a long time ago) when me and my friend got in a huge fight because she thought she could demand everyone around her and tell everyone what to do, but some of us wouldn't follow her lead so she got really mad. we are friends today again though and she has changed dramatically.
In LOTF, some obvious relationships are between Jack, Ralph, and Piggy. Most people have already talked about them, so i won't repeat them. I'll just say that I agree that Piggy and Ralph will grow in their relationship becuase they need each other and Jack and Ralph have a rocky relationship because of trust and respect and responsiblility.
Basically everyone on the island has a relationship with one another because of the island. They all need to be able to rely on everyone else to survive and to not hurt one another. That in itself seems to be the main building block of all the relationships, but the stronger ones are based on the other things they have in common. Like Jack and Ralph; they both appear as older leaders to everyone else. And then Piggy ans Ralph seem to grow in respect and in their relationship becuase they are, as Ralph puts it, "thinkers". One reason Jack and Ralph may be growing apart is that they are changing and losing respect for one another.
I found it interesting that Adriana brought up the idea of Simon and Ralph's relationship. I agree with her that their is a bond there, but i wonder how it will possibly change and affect other things. I find that I am possibly a lot like him in that I try to be the good kid who is willing to help and doesn't have really have a clique, but gets along with a lot of people.
At least twice have I had a friendship fall apart. In one of them, we had just started 6th grade adnmy new freind and I were in the same classes. Almost every weekend we would hang out and I relize now I probably neglected to remember my other freinds. So we were pretty good freinds for about a year until she just stopped talking to me and was really rude and mad towards me for no apparent reason. I am glad that my true freinds never gave up on me though, because, to this day, I am still really good freinds with at least one of them. Sadly, the other seems to have drifted off because she would ignore us and wouldn't ever hang out with us and was really rude at times. I think that that is one reason relationships fall apart. Other relationships are made and take away from the ones that were already there. And then from there, trust and the ability to count on someone is lost. Change is also a contributor. New freinds, new school, new people, new personalities. They all seem to make a difference and all are rooted in change.
The building blocks of the relationships on the island are a common cause that they need to unite for, but know that it's been a while the littluns are etting bored and the older ones are starting to want to be off the Island. Everyone is just starting to get bored and wanting to do there own thing. I can relate to this because that happens to almost all things kids try do setup without adults falls apart. The kids just don't have the discipline yet to do what is needed and not just what they want.
I think that the first building block of a friendship is to have trust with one and other. Once you have established trust then everyone seems to get along.I think that everyone is falling apart becuase they are tired of seeing the same people everyday, they don't want to be there and each one of them wants to do their own thing. My friendships usually end up failing because I get to know the person and find that I don't really like them and I don't trust them. I would get really tired and annoyed of working with people that I don't like, just how Ralph has to work with Jack.
Some relationships that have formed in Lord of the Flies is the love-hate one that has formed between Jack and Ralph. The desire for leadership and different wants (meat vs. housing and rescue) is tearing the love part down and the hate part of the relationship is increasing. My best friend from 1st grade through 4th grade (it doesn't sound like a long time, but for little kids, it is) stopped e-mailing me a few years ago. I have e-mailed her, but with no reply. I believe that when she went into middle school (she is a year older than myself) she changed, and I wasn't there to see it and change with her. I think that that is the main reason we are no longer great friends...
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The characters are a lot alike, almost all them just act without thinking, but at the same time they try to work together and get along. The building block of the relationships is that they try to listen to each other and get everyone's opinion. They are breaking apart because they don't always listen to each other. They also aren't very good about thinking ahead of time and getting everyone to work together.
I once had a friend that was very different than me, we couldn't find anything in common. So we had a really hard time getting along or talking to each other about our problems because we couldn't seem to understand each other. I can kind of connect with the boys from LOF in the fact that they seem to have a hard time communicating with each other.
Jack and Ralph have a give and take relationship. Jack allows ralph to be leader if he can head the hunters. They have a decent friendship, but jack eventually gets jealous of the power Ralph has. Also, Piggy is some what Ralph and Jacks target to let all their anger out. The building block of these relationships is the common knowledge between all the children that they need each other to survive. The thing that is breaking some of them apart is all of their ambitions to be head of the "tribe." This year i have had a relationship that has fallen apart because my friend told me a bunch of things that were not true to manipulate me to do something. Once i figured out all the stuff she said wasnt true, I havnt talked to her as much. I can not connect to the kids on the island because this has not happened in the book. The younger kids have been fed lies about the monster, but they havnt realized they have been lied to yet.
Jack and Ralph have a give and take relationship. Jack allows ralph to be leader if he can head the hunters. They have a decent friendship, but jack eventually gets jealous of the power Ralph has. Also, Piggy is some what Ralph and Jacks target to let all their anger out. The building block of these relationships is the common knowledge between all the children that they need each other to survive. The thing that is breaking some of them apart is all of their ambitions to be head of the "tribe." This year i have had a relationship that has fallen apart because my friend told me a bunch of things that were not true to manipulate me to do something. Once i figured out all the stuff she said wasnt true, I havnt talked to her as much. I can not connect to the kids on the island because this has not happened in the book. The younger kids have been fed lies about the monster, but they havnt realized they have been lied to yet.
The characters are very different, I mean Jack And ralph have some of the same characteristics but are two very differnet people. Piggy is also very different from either of the other boys. They all add different elements to the book. Piggy is the voice of reason, jack at this point seems quite violent and insane, and Ralph is the leader of this three ring circus. That's just it, everyone is not willing to listen to each other and work together. There's no order people are drifting apart, when they should be coming closer together. This could be a MAJOR problem in the future when their lives depend on organization.
I had a really good friend who really wouldn't open up all the way, she made it really hard to get to know her. I can relate to Piggy's frustration. No one is listening!!! It will be interesting to see what happens next.
In LOTF, the first example of a relationship was that of Jack and the choir. At this point of the book, the choir members have really broken off from Jack. It seemed like they really relied on him in the beggining of the book, but there hasn't been any mention of the choir in recent chapters.
I can relate to Jack and the choir's frendship with a personal experience that I had in sixth grade. I had been best friends fith this person for about a year. One day he started to sit with different people at lunch. I didn't really mind because we hung out with each other about twice a week. A couple weeks passed by and he started talking to me less and less. Also, he started being rude to some of my other friends. This bothered me more than anything else. Our freindship ended that year and I didn't really talk to him at all throughout seventh and eighth grade. Now he says hi to me in the halls, but I can't look at him without thinking about what a jerk he was to me back then.
I actually noticed a conection to Macbeth in this area. When I was reading Lord of the Flies I wrote in the margin, "Is this a foreshadowing of what will happen between Macbeth and Banquo?" I guess I ended up pretty close to right. I think the cause of the friendship break was a change of power. As soon as one of the characters gained power his friends changed. Ralph becomes less attached to Jack and more to Piggy. In the same way Macbeth has become less attached to Banquo (ok slightly more than less) but we haven't seen who he becomes more attached to yet.
I think that as Jack and Macbeth both challenge the system, they show ambition in many of their actions. I agree with lane c that the characters are becoming less attached to each other, and I believe it is because of this ambition and also selfishness. Many friendships fall apart because one person is trying every thing they can to be "better" or more "popular," but in the end, they lose their best friend, like Macbeth lost Banquo.
In LOF, Jack and Ralph form a relationship, because even though they don’t completely agree, they are the only thing each other has. Their relationship does get stronger with each hardship that comes upon them. They also start to form a bond with Piggy. I think this is because he is smart, has common sense, and they realize that with each passing day they need him more and more in order to get by. On the other hand, their relationships are blossoming because of the hard times, but those times are what also is making them get in such arguments and disagreements.
I had this really good friend in 3-7 grades. We were inseparable, and we did EVERYTHING together. Then she started to get a little clingy and protective of me in 4th grade. She would tell people whether or not they could play with me at recess. Over time, she began to get more and more clingy, until I couldn’t take it anymore. I told her I needed my space, and it worked for about a week, and then things were back to how they were. This pattern repeated itself until the summer before 7th grade, when I stopped hanging out with her as much, and I switched dance studios. She got really mad at me, and completely blew it out of proportion. She wouldn’t even talk to me. We went our own separate ways, and just this year, we are starting to talk again. I do want to be her friend, I just know now that I have to be careful where I walk.
I cannot personally connect to the way the boys relationships are falling apart, but I have seen it happen with my friends, and I know that it is hard to go through.
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