Tuesday, April 03, 2007

Fishbowl 1984 Per. 2 Book 1:1-3

48 Comments:

Blogger paigen said...

Ha Ha first comment!

Wed Apr 04, 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger briang said...

I finally got mine to load

Wed Apr 04, 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger briang said...

Connor brings up an interesting point, I thought it was weird that the children were already being trained to catch people with thought crimes. It seems weird that in their society that children could have their own parents arrested or killed. No one can trust anyone.

Wed Apr 04, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

I think that It is interesting to think about why Big Brother is called "Big Brother". Is Big Brother a real person or a name for the entire government? It seems to me that Big brother is a real person, but I'm not sure.

Wed Apr 04, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

The quote in the book,

"War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength"

is full of irony. Each word is the exact opposite of the other. What do you think is the significance of using the irony in this society?

Wed Apr 04, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger DeclanH said...

It seems like family doesn't really mean anything at all in their society. They seem like they're all just acquaintances and no one really loves anyone else.

Wed Apr 04, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

Brian g.

I agree that it seems to be odd that the children are turning in their parents. They are afraid of Big Brother, and so they want to be in good terms with Big Brother. So what they do is turn in their parents so they don't get in trouble.

Wed Apr 04, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

I think Big Brother is a real person because they have a picture of him on the poster and it describes him, but they never see him in person.

Wed Apr 04, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

kimmy c, that is a good question. Personally, I think he is just a figurehead. He may be real, but he's the puppet. Other people make the decisions, but he is who the people see as the leader.

Wed Apr 04, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

I agree with declan. Family isn't significant in the this family. The way that they act is all about themselves, because they are only concerned with their own well being. So the children care less about their parents than they should.

Wed Apr 04, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger Phillips said...

Kim - Big Brother doesn't have to be real nor does Goldstein. Anything could just be a illusion created bu the government to control the people through emotions especially fear.

Wed Apr 04, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

Sarah, I agree, I think that he is sort of a puppet and that the inner party actually makes all the rules an d everything for the government.

Wed Apr 04, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger briang said...

I think he is a ficticious character. He just represents the larger image of their government. To me they could be saying The Government is Watching You and it would mean the same thing to me. But I dont know for sure.

Wed Apr 04, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

I think Big Brother is a real person too. On the posters that are put up in the town, there is a face on all of them isn't there? So it would have to be a real person otherwise, why would that face be put on there? Just to intimidate everyone with the thought of there actually being a real person?

Wed Apr 04, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger DeclanH said...

Either way, I think it's more of what he represents than anything. The citizens look to Big Brother as a leader, whether he is a puppet or actually commanding, he still represents the government as a whole.

Wed Apr 04, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

I have an interesting question for you all. In the book, we already see three obvious foreshadowings:
1.Winston will be wiped out by the Thought Police
2. Winston will the meet the girl he hates in a park
3.O'Brien and Winston will meet in a place where there is no darkness.
Do you think these will come true? What are your thoughts about what #3 could mean.

Wed Apr 04, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

Big brother may just be a figure head, but I feel like Big Brother is kind of like Hitler. He wants to be known and feared.

Wed Apr 04, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

They are talking about communism and Hitker in the middle circle, and I belive that the entire book of 1984 is just him imagining the future, three superpowers and communism taking over the world. An example of the book just being a warning of communism is that the description of Big Brother is is just like a description of Josef Stalin, black hair and black moustache. He is just writing what he believes the Soviet Union is like and what it will be like in the future. The Soviet Union had secret police and killed millions of his own people because he thought they were traitors. The book so far is just him writing about the Soviet Union under a different name and him writing what he thinks the future will be.

Wed Apr 04, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger christa s said...

I think that Big Brother may just be a fake person created to make the people feel secure, so they don;t have a desire to do anything against the government in order to keep themselves protected from the enemies of the Party, which they believe are the ultimate evil.

Wed Apr 04, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

It is strange that the government is called Big Brother, because your older siblings you do tend to follow and look up to. There are no rules nor is anything illegal, but you will die if you do something that the government doesn't like. Thus, you are expected to be like a younger sibling to Big Brother, and know what he is like and you should act just like he would like you to. Also, it is strange that the Ministry of Love is so secretive. No civilian really knows what goes on there, and yet Love is usually something to be shared and known. It is as if Big Brother tries and thinks that 'he' knows best, but at the same time, he might not.

Wed Apr 04, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

Sarah, I think that all of them will come true. There seems to be a lot of clear foreshadowing and I think "a place where there is no darkness" may not be a place that Winston thinks has no darkness. O'Brien is a member of the inner party so I think that the place without darkness may be a place where Winston believes everything about the government.

Wed Apr 04, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

I think that the foreshadowing that Sarah moentioned will come true. I mean the author foreshadowed these things on purpose, they are definately going to happen.

Wed Apr 04, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

Sorry it took so long. Mine just loaded for me.

Anyways, I agree with what Kim said kind of a while ago in reply to Brian. She said that people want to be in good terms with big brother. I know from personal experiences that it's easier to do something to impress my big brother than just to blend in with my sister (I know it's not the best example but there is some similarity). So I guess that is what children want, to be noticed by big brother which is very important in their society.

Wed Apr 04, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

Sarah C.-Those are very interesting foreshawdowing ideas. The first one, I can definitely see happening since Winston has already commited a thought crime by writing in his diary. Most likely, it's not possible for him to hide that for very long. I can also see the second one happening as well. But why will he meet her in a park? I'm a little confused about that, maybe I missed something in the reading.

Wed Apr 04, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

christa s, that is a good point. I agree that he probably ins't real. His purpose is to make people love him. If they love him, they love the Party. Like I said before, he is just a puppet used in the government.

Wed Apr 04, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger briang said...

Well I dont know what #3 really means, but O'brien and Winston remind me alot of Montag and Faber. I think Winston will meet with O'brien later in the book, like Montag and Faber did, and will sort of team up to fight agaisnt the Party.

Wed Apr 04, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger Phillips said...

Hannah
An actor would work just fine for the pictures. Someone who is intimidating yet someone who the people could look up to as a leader, one who knows best. Once they find that person, take the pictures and kill the actor, he no longer exist and the government has their "Big brother".

Wed Apr 04, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Elyse, maybe "a place where there is no darkness" is meaning a time and a place where Winston, or someone, knows everything and there are no more secrets kept from him. "Light is shed on the truth" is a phrase that I think I have heard somewhere before.

Wed Apr 04, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

hannahj, I think he will meet her in the park for less than respectable reasons. Go to page 31, first paragraph.

Wed Apr 04, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

Considering that the book was written in 1949, It is very possible that Orwell was indeed writing about the situation that was going on at the time of the end of WWII. It could have been a part of the Cold War as well.
The only thing that doesn't really connect is how is the United States relating to 1984? Where does it fit in in the story?

Wed Apr 04, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

Thanks Sarah!

And I definitely agree with Bryan about the connection with Winston and O'Brien and Montag and Faber. Great connection Bryan!

Wed Apr 04, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

kimmy c, I don't really think it relates to the U.S. at all. Maybe Orwell was from England, not the U.S.?
kathrynt: could the place where there is no darkness be taken more literally. Like an actual place where there is only light?

Wed Apr 04, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger briang said...

Yea I agree with what Kathryn is saying. Darkness could be entirely litteral and mean that it is in a place where it is not dark. But it could also have a more metaphorical meaning like Kathryn said, like in a place where there is truth and a place where they are free.

Wed Apr 04, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger DeclanH said...

Since this book was written in 1949, and its title is 1984, it seems to be a prediction of the future. Granted, in the year 1984 this wasn't exactly what our lives were like, but Orwell may have been predicting this based on what was going on at the time and what would happen if the pattern continued.

Wed Apr 04, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

So this Goldstein person, is he a man who is under arrest or something that they're trying to catch? Or is he only used for the Two Minute Hate purposes?

Wed Apr 04, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger christa s said...

I think it is interesting that, like Bradbury in 451, Orwell predicted that the future would be dominated by TVs. In 1984, the people are controlled by TV screens that watch their every move. in 451, the people were controlled by the bright colors and superficial things in their TV walls. I think the TV was invented in 1950, but in 1949 Orwell included TVs in his book. I just thought that was interesting.

Wed Apr 04, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

"Who ever conrols the past, controls the future"-- that can be true in that if you change what is taught about the past and if you forget what has happened and no one learns from the mistakes of the past, then those same mistakes cannot be learned from and prevented from occuring in the future. The past tends to repeat itself, so if the past is changed, then what does that mean for the future. Sorry, I just had to say this, even though it is a little behind the discussion.

Wed Apr 04, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger paigen said...

Sorry, blogger wasn't working for me in class so I have to contribute now. My first question is whether or not this type of government is communism or a dictatorship?

Wed Apr 04, 03:33:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

I think Big Brother is anti-sex and has people live alone because he doesn't want love to interfere with his power. When you love someone, you are more likely to challenge the system to help them.

Wed Apr 04, 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

Why does Big Brother restrict what you wear? Would that really interfere with his power?

Wed Apr 04, 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

Regarding the slogans, "War is Peace" and so on, the two nouns in each line is opposite the other. Do the people realize that they are saying two contradicting things? Wouldn't they realize that ignorance is NOT strength?!

Wed Apr 04, 03:37:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

Clearly this book is based off of WW2 and HItler. Do you think that it will turn out the same way, Big Brother (Hitler) being defeated?

Wed Apr 04, 03:38:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

The quote about the past, present, and future is basically saying that whoever controls the present controls the past and future too. So, if the people could think, wouldn't they realize that they are living in a false reality? Since Big Brothre controls the present, he also controls the past and future, so Big Brother controls EVERYTHING!

Wed Apr 04, 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

Along with what people were saying towards the beginning of the blog, why is Big Brother refered to as a brother? Even though a brother does have influence over you, they can not control you. Could this be foreshadowing something that will happen later in the book?

Wed Apr 04, 03:41:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

With Declan and Kim, I don't think family matters either because they are backstabbing eachother. It is like having a family that you don't love. Is the lack of love what Big Brother uses to control everyone?

Wed Apr 04, 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger shaunam said...

Likewise, my computer didn't load blogger during class.

Paige, for you first question, I think that the society in 1984 is both a dictatorship as well as communist. The government has absolute power and control over the people, and can punish them anyway they want. They can arrest them for thought crime and things like that. It is a communist place as well because they are keeping everyone at the same level so no one will have the brains to stand up and say, "this isn't the way things should be." But because the government has control over the past as well as the future, the people don't know any better. Hope that answers at least part of your question!


As for my question, why is everything labeled "victory?" Like the Victory Mansions and Victory Gin and Victory Cigarettes? Is this just another ploy by the government?

Wed Apr 04, 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger elyse h said...

My computer worked today during class but i forgot to add that what I noticed sort of relating to our conversation about color, is that almost everything in this government seems to contradict itself. The ministry of truth-changes history, the ministry of love is a jail, the ministry of peace is involved in a war, and Victory Mansions, the place where Winston lives, is a run down apartment building. Just thought I would add that.

Wed Apr 04, 08:10:00 PM  
Blogger tanal said...

Sorry, my computer also was not working in class today, so I have a few things. Okay to respond to Paige, I think that Big Brother restrics what the citizens wear, because he doesn't want anyone to stand out of the croud and be more noticed than others. It would just be easier for Big brother if everyone looked the same. This is kind of like the Holocaust because the Nazis and HItler shaved everyones heads when they entered the camps and they dressed them all in the same uniform. Also Big Brother kind of acts as Hitler in 1984.

Shauna, about everything being labled "Victory" well I think that it is sort of a ploy by the government because these victory items actually make the consumers feel like they help when they use them, like when winston drinks the victory gin and smokes a victory cigarette. On the other hand it could just be what Winston goes for after a hard or bad day becasue they make him feel good and like he has accomplished something, "Victory."

Okay so I have a question:

Since no one has really seen Big Brother other than on poster, how do we know that it is one person and it is not just a group of people who also watch over the people along with the thoughtpolice.

Wed Apr 04, 09:17:00 PM  

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