Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 1:15 PM
Let's get this party started!
do you always do that daniel?
yes yes he does.
By the way, my picture is a scene from F451 where the firefighters are shooting their kerosene tanks and the resulting flame is in the shape of a salamander.
ready freddy??? here. we. go!!!
ok then! What's with the mechanical hound?
what is the meaning of the Salamander ing this book?
Hey sweetness the salemander!!! OR IS IT??
sarah-hes the guy that kills mice and I guess cats too :( He keeps the fire house critter free
The mechanical hound... I think the point of it is to bring out and present the fears of Montag. Since he has something hiddent behind the ventillator grille, it shows that he fears it being found out.
I first thought that the salamander ment the people who were hiding books. But we said something else in class.
I thought that was just a game the firemen played!
Something I didnt really get was when the women said the books were her neighbor's, but then she stayed in there-but wasnt it her neighbor's house???
No, the women said that her neighbor had ratted her out.
Nice Ben, the woman had nothing left to live for, and she is trying to make a point that books are important to people still.
Maybe she believed that people should be able to have books and she saw that Montag was being swayed, so she stayed to die for her beliefs and to show Montag that books aren't for burning.
I wonder about the salammander. Isn't a salamander someone who lives in water? So then the most deadly thing to it would be fire...what could the author mean to represent with this?
So she died just to stay in a swayed person's head? what daniel?
It could be foreshadowing that later on, the "empire" of the salamander will fall.
I don't understand how the mechanical dog could attack Montag if it's mecanical. I didn't think it would have any feelings.
I thought newts lived in water. Don't salamanders live in the desert too?
wow, so then there were TWO people there that were against the system...then what happened to her neighbor?
Riley, I think she really wants to make a statement to the world. Remember, all her neighbors ran out as the fire lit.
No... i meant that she couldve seen potential in Montag that he could help the cause to stop book burning and she believed in it so much that she died to even have a chance at stopping the one-track mind government that believes that books are evil.
I don't think her neighbor is against the system. I think her neighbor gave the police a tip-off.
Why did the woman seem so calm the entire time the firefighters are in her home? Why does she act so calm when she refuses to leave the house? In what way did she challenge the system besides having a closet full of books?
oooooo empire of the salamander!!! wow how does that relate?
I'm oing off of the idea that is mentioned in class...I believe that books become a part of you. I know my books have become apart of me, such as I know that no one really cares about my fiction books, and there is nothing paticularly remotely important to others, however some of my books have helped me to get through hard times, they don't mean anything to Joe down the road, however, they mean a lot to me.
Erin the hound can be set to certain people based on some sort of biology. It can't have feelings so obviously something is going on.
But why did the neighbors run out? because they were scared or to watch the show?
Well, in Macbeth, he sort of felt like he was in control of an empire, and his empire fell, and so maybe that will happen in this book. The government will get too overconfident and the Empire of the Salamander will fall.
sarah-nice idea, but then why would she give them HER address??? but ya that could answer the question of how the police know about illegal books
I see a connection between LOF and this. The almost savage way the firemen were acting as they stormed the house to burn down the books is like the obsessively savage way that Jack's tribe hunted the pigs and went to Ralph's camp to steal fire. I didin't even realize it, but both groups also had their craziness deal with FIRE.
lanec=I'm going off of what you said about the hound. I believe that maybe dna is injected in the hound...
I think the woman thought that dying for something she believed in was better than giving in. And silence is often more accusing than shouting. Think of Dumblebore in Harry Potter and the effect his quiet voice has.
hmmm...cool ive never thought of a salamander that way
Nice point Maddy I see that too.
I agree with Kerri and that Montag doesn't like change. But, I don't understand why. Why is is that people are not adaptable to change?
Has anyone else noticed that they use fire as a symbol for cleansing? It's so opposite of the water that is cleansing in Macbeth. Why is that?
I think the police can track down the address of someone over the phone.
Sarahso how would she be creating a statement to the world by staying and saying that she will ignite herself on fire, when no one is there to hear it?
Sarah, that's a great point. I think with silence you can emphasize something more, because it seems so out of the ordinary.
Mphair... I may be wrong, but i think it said in the book that the feeling of the mechanical hound are programmed into it. So maybe its feelings toward Montag have been programmed by someone who sees Montag has had a slight change on mind and wants to stop him. So in a sense, it does have feelings, but theyre just not its own.
I think she symbolizes hope for him. Maybe that way she is having him slow down and look at life.
All her neighbors ran out of their houses to see, remembr?
Hannah- I think that the woman symbolizes the people who hid Jews in the Holocaust. They tried to be strong and calm so that the police wouldn't think something was up.
ooooo nice sarah,yeah if its the future...but then why were the books in her house? and also, i totally agree with you that actions speak louder than words and by dying, she is saying ALOT, look how it affected Montag
What is the differnce between voilence in the book and voilence in our ownn world
i thought you meant ran out of her house, i was very confused. Sorry Sarah miss-interpretation
riley- Montag heard it! I think that he is starting to see how things can be different. I also think that Clarisse has a huge impact on his sudden desire to grab a book. I wonder if Clarisse were in the woman's situation if she would choose to die too...
Mmm... I would say no difference. People kill people. Its not a new thing, and theres no difference between how it happens in books and how it happens in real ilfe. Although maybe the people in the book are more avid and kill for different reasons. At least theres no difference between violence in killing.
That's fine riley.I think that in the book, they don't have much restriction when it comes to small acts of violence, but when it comes to larger forms of vioilence, the firemen save it for the books.
Why is youth making the differnce just becaue someone is young doesn't make them inoccent
shelby- nice! in a way, she is like smoke was in LOF, smoke seemed to symbolize hope there too. Now thats what you call ironic
I think violence in books is different because books represt what happens, and the world is what actually happens.
Maria-which is the basis for the rest of the book, but when she says something only to Montag, that isn't saying something to the whole world. It may be sticking it to the man, which is the accepted view of everyone in the world, but it isn't directly a statement to the world, only to Montag.
Why is this wqorld so lacking in emotion? Is it because of the lack of books
I think that Clarisse isn't really young, she's more of an experienced younger person. Oftentimes, different people see different parts of the world than people who are normal do.
Wow some good points going on here. I really like what maria said about smoke and hope and Clarisse.
Youth I think all together stands for Apperance vs. Reality.
Though, violence in books is still vilolence, you have to admit that the whole lighting of the match, and the burning of the woman did not have an effect on you.
Ayla--While that may be true, I think historically they are considered representative of innocence. Look at Lord of the Flies--Golding distilled humanity to its essence through children.
That is a great analogy, Sarah! One you think about Dumbledore, and his power over everyone he talks too, the woman is a lot alike him. About the violence and how it is so evident in the culture in the book. The people don't have books or anything that occupies their time, so they pass time doing violent things, like smashing cars. I think that today, we have books and amgazines that we can read, that give us ideas and opinions to cultivate and think about.
ayla, I think the lack of books has helped the government brainwash the community.
Clarisse said that sometimes she feels ancient. Maybe that ties back to being "young and innocent," maybe she no longer feels innocent because she sees what is happening in her society
Back on the class discussion about violence in the media... look at how we react to it. How many times have you heard the word rape used in a joke. It is something so serious and devastating and yet we think its just a joke.p.s. don't say that anymore.its really annoying and rude
No death is a statistic, they effect everyone. The old women was someones daughter, wife mother, you know?
I agree with Shelby in that the world happens. We really don't live in a perfect world, and there is violence everyday. I don't think that we would ever live in a world were there is no viloence.
Ayla, Do you think that youth should stand for innocence? If not why?
I agree Erin, it becomes more and more relevant every day.
Can everyone copy a portion of someone else's comment when they refer to it, instead of just saying that person's name?!? For it really becomes a problem when someone says great comment maria or sarah, 'cause than i have to search the whole blog for that comment and even than i'm not sure if that is the right comment. Thanks!!?!
I noticed that throughout the whole book, Bradbury uses a lot of passages that have repetition. They repeat consecutive numbers and phrases and past events and other things that have significance in the book. I wonder why he does that? Does is relate to how fast things are happening in Montags life? I also noticed that after these passages, there seems to be some sort of epiphany, confusion, or conflict inside Montag. Is there something seriously wrong in Montags heart that Bradbury uses this style of writing so much?
I don't remember if this is from 451 or from something else, but i heard a quote the said, "1 death is a tragedy, 100 is a statistic. That really comes back to what Ben said about Iraq.
Shelby I thnk youth can be inocent but thaT DOESN'T MEAN WE ALL ARE
laura- WOW. In 7th grade we studied Utopia and we learned that the creaters of Utopia are looking for a society without any violence. We also noticed that it usually does the opposite- theres more violence and jealousy in Utopia than a regular society. I think this is because sooner or later, somebody realizes they need to challenge the system.
On what Hannah said, should we conform to what we are told to be, should we let pressure from others, such as our peers effect us? It is kind of like Clarisse thinking on her own for herself.
I think now-a-days, youth are becoming less and less innocent.
what was the actual purpose of the mechanical hound? I missed that in the book, can someone answer this for me? i only understood that the hound kills small animals when they are to large in abundance.Please confirm.
Does anyone think that Montag would have stolen the books if he hadn't met Clarice? Maybe he is getting the books for her.
Micheles comment: I think the oppisite, I think we want attetion and will do whatever we can to get it
I wondered what the importance of the Mechanical hound was. they don't seem to take it when they go to houses to burn books.
Riley - like i said earlier, i think that the mechanical hound is there to show Montags fears. When he sees it, it said something about being caught because something was hidden behind his ventillator grille. In this instance, his greatest fear is whatever is hidden behind the grille being found out.
but why was the hound created?
Ty, I think that Montag would have still kept the book, i think that the reason why he did in the first place was because of the woman's passion.
TycDoes anyone think that Montag would have stolen the books if he hadn't met Clarice? Maybe he is getting the books for her. I don't think Montag would have taken the book without Clarice's help, but I think that it is for him because he is realizing that books could be interesting to read.
About confromity, that goes back to Mildred, who doesn't want to talk about anything, or do anything that might be different than what the rules say. When Montag says anything or brings up a point where Mildred has to actually (gasp*shock*!) think, she doen't want to think about it. She wants to be like the rest of society, who are brainwashed and don't think for themselves.
Why does Bradbury use a public figure such as a firemen to show destruction?I he uses this as if to say fireman don't heal they destroy.
A neighbor of the woman with the books told the firemen about the books. This novel was written after WWII and during the war, Jewish people were betrayed by neighbors, friends and stranger. Did the author relate that part of the book to the actions of people in WWII?
I think that the hound represents guilt. That doesn't mean it can acatually sense guilt, but Montag is feeling it in himself and he sees it in the form of the hound.
ty- ya i think so too. she is definitely having a huge impact on him. But I'm not sure he's strong enough to be doing this, he felt the guilt as soon as he touched the book. But maybe this is sorta like killing people and it will get easier as he does it more.
Well in the book it says that they have it to catch rats and stuff and that they play games with it. E.G. let rats out and see which one it catches first.
I think that the old man in the park has something to do with montag's taking the book.
Yeah, it does just sit back at the station and kill small creatures, i don't understand it's actual purpose. It may symbolize in the book that destruction has become an important part of society because they have learned to come close to cheating death because of their advancements that the world is overpopulated, they need tools to effectively destroy. This seems true for they need firemen to destroy outdated books that the government doesnt agree with, and the mechanical hound that can't breed and create more of itself to kill off animals that can.
I missed the dicussion because of a doctor's appointment, but I wanted to comment on the mechanical dog. I personally think that dog represents the fear the humans will lose everyhting old fashioned such as books and reading and become completely dependant on technology. Montag to me seems scared of the future. He knows what school taught him but he doesn't think that is engough. He seems to like things of the past. I also thinks that Clariise amplfies his fear of the mechanical dog becasue she brings to light the question of why.
Mmm... thats a good point! I never thought to think of it that way. Maybe he has hidden behind his ventillator grille a book because if everyhting else old fashined is burned, at least he still has that one remnant of the way things used to be. Great observation!
I, too really like your point, Emilyl. It gives one food for thought...
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