Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 8:49 AM
I really want to bring up the connection to the Pedestrian!! He is her uncle!
What does that show us about her personality?
What do you mean by "he's her uncle"? who?
On page 10, it mentions that the Pedestrian is Clarece's uncle.
Ya, who's who's uncle? I'm confused. Can you be more specific?
I think that Clarisse and Guy are a lot alike. They think the same, but they show it differently.
Annaw, do you think that that means that those stories can be related somehow?
He may not actually BE her uncle, but he is LIKE her uncle. Maybe Bradbury got his ideas from the Pedestrian.
Anna, it just says that he was arrested for being a pedestrian, that doesn't nescessarily mean he is the pedestrian.
Is the Pedestrian and this book writing by the same person? Or did Bradbury read the Pedestrain and then liked it so much he used it in his story?
Clarisse brings out the inner personality of Guy that was covered up by his position as Fireman.
Page 10. Remember the short story about the Pedestrian that we read? The girl that Montag meets(Clarisse)says that the Pedestrian is her uncle, what does that show about her?
The uncle is a man who lives with clarisse, and her parents, he was arrested for walking around at night.
Ok. In the story pedestrian, there is the guy who is walking outside and gets arrested. The girl, clairese? mentioned that her uncle got arrested for being a 'pedestrian.' just like in the story. So the assumption is that the the pedestrian in the story and clairesses uncle are actually the same person.
She isn't taken over by society. She doesn't let people decide what she will do with her life. When she talks to the fireman she just says that she goes and sits to just think. The fireman thought that that was really weird. She doesn't let everyone else think for her; shes very independant and doesn't let anyone rule her.
I definetly think that they are related. That's why we read those two short stories before we started. Anyways, does this story completely remind anyone else of the giver? It didn't really until Clarisse asked if he ever read the books that he burned and he replied 'no, it's against the law.'
Why does the girl notice all of these things, but Montag doesn't?
QUESTION:What is the thing that Guy Montag sees in the vent. For those who were in Mrs. P's class, is it a camera, CONNECTION: Like Big Brother is watching you in 1984?
Anna, it doesn't say that her uncle IS the pedestrian, it just says that he was arrested for BEING one. There's a difference.
Ya, I don't know if the two stories are DIRECTLY related, but they are veyr similar. I think we need to read more before we jump to conclusions like that. But we can infer.
I agree with Brian.
paige I agree with you. I think that maybe Guy used to be as exploring as Clarisse but after he started being a fireman he lost his interest. And then meeting Clarisse has sparked his interest again.
Did bradbury read the pedestrian and incorporate him into fahreheit 451?
I agree with brian too!
shaunam I think that they will be majorly similar. Even though the pedestrian may not be the same, it seems to me that that may be why Ms. Smith made us read it...
READ THIS! Follow along on one question at a time, dont bring up other things constantly it makes it hard to follow the blog. SETTLE DOWN
Because she grew up differently. the girl grew up challenging the system, even in the small way of being different, yet montag grew up with all the advantages of someone who lives within the system, but also the disadvantege of being blind to the small things of the world
WOW! good point Chelsea H and Josh B! I didn't know that salamanders could live in fire or that a phoenix symbolized it so well!
Because he is distracted by his job and the world and no one looks anymore around the world, that's why she is so diffrent
What does the actions and fear that people have say about the society they are living in?How could society grow to be this cruel? Does it have some fault to technology?
Back to sarah c's question- I don't think that the thing in the vent is like Big Brother in 1984. I think that maybe there is something forbidden that he has hidden in the vent.
Shauna, I think the girl notices things that Guy doesn't because she takes the time to think about that stuff. LIke if I was to tell you that the number 13 is on the sheep by the computer, you probably wouldn't have noticed it.
I just want to say that what i noticed from the first 24 pages is that there is a lot of contrast to our world today. Everything is opposite of how we know the world.
i think the thing he saw in the vent is a book. because i think the firemen can't read a book and he is guilty because he is hiding one.
I really like Endsley's point. When she says THE fireman, does that mean he is the only fireman like the only cop car in the Pedestrian?
I agree, emilyh!!
It seems like there is so much technology in this book that people don't live their own lives anymore. I have the same question as jess b's, does the cruel society have something to do with a fault in technology?
Going along with what they are talking about in the middle, why do they view firemen like that in this society? Firemen in our world are heroes and we respect them, and occassianlly they come out with a pretty decent calander. But, why would the author show people acting like this towards firemen? They seem almost afraid of them, and they make steriotypes.
sarah c--sotrue! I also noticed that he didn't believe that firemen used to put out fires
I think firemen are like heroes, but mysterious ones. Even people who do agree with book burning might be a little afraid of the firemen because they are powerful and different. does that make sense?
I think that Montag is masking his happiness because he doesn't want to feel the sadness, he wants to feel like he is happy.
I'm not sure if he knows what is behind the vent. He may have forgotten and clarrise said something that mde him remeber that something was there.
The Pedestrian and 451 are similar in storyline, I think that's why Smith wanted us to read it. I'm not so sure that there is any real relationship other than the Challenging the System motif. My question is: how come Guy got the number 451 out of all the other numbers? is it just coincidence?
i agree with emily. he kind of acted as if he were doing something wrong or that he felt bad and guilty that he was hiding a book even though he is burning down peoples houses for having books
What I think is interesting is that in all of the future stories that we have read are so alike. Is this really what the people think will happen in 10-20 years?
to jess b. you asked how could society grow to be this cruel, but we are already on our way to being that cruel. It starts with a small crime, then some more small crimes and people begin to get indifferent about them, they stop being amazing, then bigger crimes, and slowly society becomes numb to the cruel things of this world because they are simply... COMMONPLACE.Hopefully though our society wont get to this extreeme.
To me Guy is a very easily manipulated man. He does this job where he burns books, and it gives him pleasure, but when a teenage girl challenges this he starts to question why he is a fireman, and if he's really happy or not. Did anyone else notice this?
What happened to make a whole bunch of people overdose on pills (pg13). Is there a war going on?
I think that they ARE afraid of them brian. Fireman set books on fire. Some people LOVE books and when they do this they are killing people's hopes, dreams, memories, and whatever else a book can bring to a person.
sara---I totally agree with you.I thought the same exact thing.People seemed to be exactly opposite.THe girl seemed "normal" to us; but she was extremely weird to them.And the firemen now days are known as brave heroes, the complete opposite of that time.I think that the author is trying to make our minds twist and think of what our future could be.
briang-I'm beginning to wonder if, even when times are so completely different from our own, if there will always be stereotypes- and tere will always be those who "challenge the system"
Yeah, I agree with what endsley was just saying that like in Harrison Bergeron, everyone in the society in Fahrenheit 451 just forgets everything they don't want to think about and puts on a false face. They forget everything unpleasant.
My last comment was to sarah churchill. :]
i think in response to sarah c, that nothing HAPPENED, but society is so corrupt, and technology is so advanced, that people can overdose easily, have their blood replaced and be fine the next morning. people dont think about the consequenses
Annaw, good point. I think that Clarisse is making him realize that he doesnt like the way he is living, she is trying to make him challenge the normal way of life.
OH! Here is a connection to challenging the system, I think that you need to be unhappy with the way you live to challenge the system. In Macbeth, Macbeth was unhappy that he lived and was so unpowerful. And in LOF, Jack is unhappy with the way he is living, so he rebels.
To sarah, the people are probably so bored in there society that they would rather commit siucide rather than live in this pointless existence.
I think he is hiding his depression. He is expected to love his wife, but I don't think he really does. The talk with Clarisse reminds him of this more than anything. For a few minutes, he is truly happy, but coming home, he realizes how empty his life is. Maybe he didn't call the emergency line out of love. Maybe it is just the instinct that has been pounded into us telling him that he should be very concerned because he loves Mildred.
sara and jess you guys make a good point. Eveyone who seems normal to us now are seen diferently to people in the book. also everyone has changed so much from now to the future.
PAIGE IS SMART. I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. GOOD CONNECTION
I think that people are trying to forget the past. They are just trying to live and get by. They take many things for granted and are just hurrying their lives along. It's like they are trying to speed up their life to get to something bigger and better... but nothing seems to be coming.
Clarisse and her family are challenging whhat is normal. I think that Montag wants to be a part of that. In a society where no one walks, no one talks, and no one basically does anything, he wants to break away from that. His curiosity is peaked by Clarisse and her family. But will his curiosity turn his world upside down? After all, curiosity killed the cat.
I agree with Jess.Authors of these stories that portray the future often make things the oppostie of what they are. Does this cause a different effect to occur? Or does it make us think differently and wonder about the future a little more than we did before?
I agree with you,Adriana because when Clarisse rubs the dandelion on his chin and says he is not in love, he insists that he is, although he cannot match a face with his words. He knows that he should love his wife, but he does not.
When Montag wanted to go in and talk to the family, it reminded me of Ralph in LOF becoming tired and just wanting to walk in to Jack's camp to sleep. They both want to come out of their unfulfilling society to something more comforting and civilized.
When he talks to Clarisse, his true self is revealed. This really strikes me as someone who has a lot of power. She has the power to see beyond the face to what is inside.
i agree with sarah C. yes, his curiosity will turn his world upside down. here's a Q: what effect will clairesse have on montag and his job... is he even allowed to quit?
going with the middle i think that they are both looking but they aren't really seeing and aren't taking the time to notice what is going on and what they are doing.
I agree with what most people are saying now. I think that the people take the pills so they don't think about suicide. But when they become smart enough to realize that they could overdose on those pills, they need a fast way to help them from commiting suicide. Why do they not want people to commit suicide so badly?
What is so different about this society?Why does Clarisse seem so different than all of the other people so far in this story?Why are all of these futuristic books (Fahrenheit 451, the Giver etc) have such warped societies? Why did all of that emotion go away? Why are they all like robots and don't even know about themselves.
I think that his relationship with his wife may be faltering. His encounter with the new neighbor Clarisse may have brought him back to the present, a sort of wake up slap of sorts. She seems like she may be a huge turning point in the novel, and also may die a tragic, ironic death. That would be cool...
That's a good connection adriana g.
This is off the subject but, What confuses me about Montag's wife's overdose is that she doesnt remember doing anything the night before. While they were replacing her blood montag was hoping that they could replace her memory, and they don't, but why doesnt she remember overdoseing? What does Montag want to erase from his wife's memory?
So far they haven't mentioned anything about the goverment, the only thing we have heard is that books are illegal.
Saram, Im not so sure that people during this time liked books. Maybe except for Clarisse. Guy has a set schedule. Monday burn Millay, Wednesday burn Whiteman, and Friday burn Faulkner. I think that maybe people didn't read that much so these are the only 3 authors left. And their books are not selling so they are being burned now.
Paigen~I think that they don't want people to commit suicide because they want an ideal society.
QUESTION!!!!!I wonder what event that may come, compelled these people to go into this bland "dark age"?
Paige-I think suicide only creates chaos. Once one person does it, then others know it is possible, and that a lot of things could be possible that the government frowns upon.
I think that although all we have heard about the government is that reading books is illegal and you are not allowed to be pedestrian says a lot about how it is set up. The government is trying to erase the past, trying to make people forget. It shows that they are a controlling system.
Adam just talked about Clarisse seeming to take in every detail. Maybe this is different for him because people don't listen to each other any more. Montag's wife has become an expert lip reader and it seems like she can converse normally while listening to her earphones. If this is true, then why couldn't she tell her husband was so worried when they were discussing? People just stopped listening to each other and trying to understand emotions.
Ends---I think that their slogan is just to make a point that the government believes that people don't need to read and that they are not important and may cause society to begin to change themselves.
That's true Sara. Maybe they are keeping some people from commiting suicide so that others don't and that the human race doesn't collapse as we know it.
Christa-I agree with you that when Clarisse rubs the dandilion on his chin and nothing shows up, he says he is in love, and he wants to think that. But he is no so sure if he is in love or not. Clarisse is making him rethink the way things are and now he is full of doubt and isn't so sure of himself.
i agree with endsley. maybe nobody read books anymore or they didn't enjoy them as much as people do now. i think everyone has stopped reading then and that is one of the reasons that the books are being burned. i think that they don't want the people to read books and obtain the info and change from reading a books so they are burned
ends-i don't agree with that. i think that the government thinks that when people read they gain knowledge. if one person mixes to much knowledge with their own opinion, they could somehow find a way to overthrow the government or something like that.
tana, why would this cause them to go to the extreme of burning them?
endsleye~ I agree with you and also, in the Pedestrian when the cop pulled over the pedestrian, he asked the profession, and the ped. said writer, why did the cop reply :"No profession?"
wow. the transition between discussions is weird....
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writers are outdated. books are outdated. what effect does that have on society
I agree with Sara again. I think they don't want people to read because they do get smarter. Let's say you read a book on how the American colonists overthrew the British govt. they may get ideas.
The suicides show that everyone, even the seemingly-ignorant Mildred thinks something is missing. Unfortunately, death would invade a utopia. I think it is sad that people can't even choose when to die.
elyseh~I think that maybe Mildred did remember overdosing, but she forced herself to forget. Like in the society in Harrison Bergeron, the people just forget the bad things and the things they don't want to think about. I don't think Montag was trying to make his wife forget what she did, but he didn't feel that trying to convince her that she actually DID overdose was worthwhile. She would just resist and insist that she did not try to commit suicide.
Kjerstin just had a good point in the real discussion. Why did clairese pick montag?
shauna-i still think that the government is afraid of the people. they are afraid that the people could rise up against them. they wont allow writers and people to read books because think of how many people read the newspaper and hear the authors POV about the war, or bush. people will agree and disagree. if this goes to far, who knows what might happen?
ood point shauna, i think that both of these books are set in the same time period. i think that the books are all being burned so really a writter isn't considered a proffesion anymore. also if the books are banned then maybe having the proffesion of writting is banned also.
shaunam-i think that the cop said "no profession" because books were inferior at the time. In the story, TVs are on, people are being quiet, they are not laughing talking reading.
In the conversation, they are asking if clairrese had talked to other. She said that she has talked to other firemen and none f them ever looked at what they said.
I think that the government won't let people read books because it can change people's views on things and they don't want people to know everything, maybe the government has secrets that they want to keep hidden, but if you could read books somebody might write about the government's secrets.
emilyh I think that many people have a creative outlet, most of the time being writing. I think that this will make society crazy and make people not able to think for themselves.
christa, i disagree. I doubt she remembered overdosing, why would she make herself forget? i think she honestly didnt remember, i just want to know why guy didnt press the issue.
How come suicide is acommons thing in these times... if this was a perfect society, would people be so upset about their lives that they would take lives?
I wonder if Clarisse was a writer at one point. Because you can destroy books, but you can't (for the most part) destroy the authors who thought up the ideas?
What is so different about Montag that he'll listen to clarisse?
eyes are the windows to the soul...yes definitely. Clarisse was talking about how Guy was different. The book also talked about how Guy could almost sense where Clarisse was and the pill bottle on the floor. Maybe Clarisse could sense something was wrong. It could be just it the way he walked to work, or what little she could see him doing.
thank you paige. that was a good example. i mean think about the history of the world. it wasn't a walk in the park. it involved war and death and pain. those three things break ever rule a utopia has.
i agree with you shauna
The pedestrian is in fact by ray bradbury
I think Guy didn't press the issue because he didn't want to upset his wife further, and maybe it has happened before, and he has given up oon ever making her believe what she is doing to herself.
i think that clarisse brings out the real montag and he can actually talk to her. also she gives him more views on life and another way to look at things
To kim, it is and isn't a perfect society. Everything is taking care of so people have nothing to do. So taking away almost all work backfired causing people to be so bored to commit suicide.
paige~ you should come into the middle, you have a lot of really good ideas and points!!
Why would an author of books marry someone who burns books?
maybe what is different about montag is that he has something hidden, a book i think, in the radiator thing. that makes him different, it gives him a jolt back to real life, and this girl seems like someone who will keep him there, and he is intrigue
i'm kind of contradicting myself here, but maybe Mildred didn't remember overdosing because it is a common occurrence. Maybe she has tried to take her own life so many times that it has just blurred together.
I think that the reason why she couldn't remember overdosing, was because the pills make you forget things. Maybe when they take a pill every night, they forget all of their short term memory, so they can't develop a plan to challenge the system, and maybe Clarisse doesn't take the pills (and Guy might not either) so that is why she can really think.
I remembber Guy saying that her eyes were what drew him to her. What does that say about her?
I don't think someone would commit suicide because they were bored...
wow paige. that makes so much sense. do they kill the authors that come up with these ideas? or is it possible (this might sound a little funny) for them to say brainwash them? maybe the firemen used to be authors but are now working for the government because they don't know better.
How did people react to this book when it was first published. Was it realated to what was going on in the world at the time?
Dangit, I wish there were more open chairs!
i think that montag is slightly out of touch with the controlled world in which he lives, which would explain why he wasn't in love with his wife, why he will listen to clarise, and why he is so different from the other firemen.
I guess it is possible for an author and a fireman to marry, Clarisse sees that Guy is different, and that he can change. I think she understands that maybe he only burns books because he needs something in his empty, unemotional life.
brian-go tap someone and get in there. haha. or just say what you were ging to say in here...
Maybe the reason that they are commiting suicide because they want to have control, if they can kill themselves maybe this proves to them that they have control over their own lives.
I agree with Emily. I think that is why Montag can think like Emily. And maybe when he laughed and said that reading was against the law, maybe it was a sort of uncomfortable, guilty laugh.
I don't think that Mildred has overdosed before because Montag was asking the handymen so many questions. Like if they were doing it right, if she'll be ok, and if an M.D. should be doing this.
i do think that people would commit suicide especially in that time because nothing is ever going on and in fehrenheit 451 everything is so bland and controlling so i think people would commit suicide to get away from evverything and that they were bored with what was going on or what wan't going on
kimmy c~what did you mean with your question about why an author of books would marry a person who burned books? Montag is the only one in the book that we know is a fireman, and Mildred is not an author. Were you talking about Mildred and Montag?
this conversation moves so fast. i can hardly keep up. lets slow it down a bit.
I don't know howw suicide got into the conversation, but I think that they commit suicide to forget. The book talks about something bad that happened a few years ago, maybe in order to completely forget the choice is death?
I totally agree with Alex's comment about communism and human nature--just like Macbeth and LOF. The boys in LOF wanted to have a utopia, but humans can't work that way.
yeah, why is everyone saying that mildred is an author? havnt we also met the other firemen?
saram, I agree. If the firemen used to be authors, then wouldnt that make the pedestrian a firman as well? That would make sense because there seems to be many coonections between the pedestrian and F451. But if they used to be authors, then why does Montag like the fire. He said the fire brougt him pleasure. Why would he like to watch his "former life" burn away.
Along with Tana's idea, I think people need to see other's challenging the system. It might give them a sense of power and if no one is, maybe they aren't sure what they are supposed to do.
Good point elyse..
I wonder how the world got this way? There was mentions of something bad happening...what could've caused so many people to forget their past?
christa--someone thought that Mildred might have been an author... I was just saying that i didn't think she would have married a man wo burned books, especially since he might have burned her books.
Pills do take our troubles out of life. And it seems to me that the overdose on the pills was an attempt at suicide. So what is it that is bothering Montag's wife so much that she would almost be willing to commit sucicde?
Along with paigen and tanal's ideas about suicide being like challenging the system, Mildred, like Macbeth, is an example of someone who tried to challenge the system but failed.
I don't think that it is an attempt of suicide at all. I believe its a way for her to release stress and get away from the world. Not to kill herself.
briang, I think that, if it was an attempted suicide, it was because she felt her life was not worth living anymore. I think that the same goes for all the other people who overdosed on sleeping pills. They are not all as ignorant as they seem. It was like our discussion about Macbeth. During the day, everyone has a false appearence. At night, we see what people truly are. At night, we discover that Mildred and others are not just ignorant sheep, they know or sense that there is something wrong in the world and they are tired of pretending. After the "doctors" come to pump the poison out of people, the patients forget about the whole incident. Mildred goes back to her normal, mechanically dependent self, not trying to challenge the system. The operation and the morning bring a fresh mask. Maybe she didn't really love Montag, and it is the total loss of emotion that made her want to end her life.So, my question is:What are some of the emotions exhibited, or emotions you can infer are present in characters or generic citizens, government, etc. Which ones are real emotion?
for one Montag really shows emotion. Whether he's feeling the rush of burning books or he's freaking out over figuring out his wife has attenpted suicide, he does show a lot of emotion. However, he keeps it bottled up inside alot of times, so everyone will thing he's just like someone else a mindless drone.
I really wonder about Clarisse. What makes her so different than everyone else? How come only her family really knows the truth about the past? How come she has such an impact of Montag? Where did her family leave? How come if everyone is one way, that it didn't affect her family?
I really don't think that it's the people who are changing the world, I think it is more of the technology. Like tana is saying, it's making people rely on techology. Then, when people lose emotion, they get afraid. Maybe that's why teenagers have killed others in the book, because when they realize they some sort of emotion, they get scared and really have no idea how to cope with it.
Like they said in the dicussioin, beatty says about the hound "it thinks what we tell it to think" so people are still in control but technology has gotten ahead of the human body.
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