Live blogging period 5
posted by annes @ 11:00 AM
Smith's 9th Honors Class Blog
Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
Contributors
- elyseh
- Kjerstinl
- Adriana
- Karl Fisch
- HarryPotterFreak(danh)
- shaunam
- Unknown
- Connor DUCETIME
- AnnaD
- annes
- Alex_Manning
- Anoel
- Mphair
- jbarry
- Kim C. 2010
- Spencer Z
- Tom
- bawachmu
- Hannah J
- KendraS2009
- KariB
- maddyg
- emilya
- Shelbyb-dad
- sarahc
- LindsayS
- briang
- krump
- Alexaaaaa
- Dan
- Declan "Danger"
- tanal
- adamb
- Lisa Madsen Crellin
- endsleye
- TyC
- Shelby B.
- Unknown
- EmilyLu
- Unknown
- saram
- Aylar
- EmilyH
- Laurab
- hannahs
- alexd
- Phillip
- zachf
- michelleg
- chelseah
- lindsey c
- KathrynT
- Kaity
- Shelbyb-mom
- paigen
Previous Posts
- Live Blogging per.2
- Macbeth Test Questions-Period 5
- Macbeth Test Questions-Period 2
- Dan Maas visit
- Macbeth Act 5
- LOF connections to Macbeth
- Act 4 questions
- LOF question ch 7-8 p.2
- Act 3 Questions
- LOF question period 2
121 Comments:
Hi. Let's get this party started!
Chang chang!!! lets go!
Man, this is one deep discussion...I think the whole reflection thing ties back to appearance vs. reality!
I agree, tom.
good point Maria
I think she was attached to her father.
Thanks lindsey
Do we know if Lady Macbeth even had any children??
It reminds me of the recent school shooting in the Amish community. He did it because of things that happened to him long ago.
ya lindsey, they made Macbeth over confident so that they could be sure he will take action and think that NO ONE can undo him. I think this tells us a lot about ourselves as humans, since overconfidence can be the biggest downfall.
I don't think we can know for sure what happened to Lady Macbeth in her past and for that matter if something happened. Maybe she was always power hungry and the opprotunity given to Macbeth triggered it. Our answers seem to be the same as when we last asked this question.
Not to be rude or anything but how does Lady Macbeth's past relate to the story and the main themes? Does it actually matter?
I agree with the apperance vs. reality because she says one thing and acts the other.
Lindsey, I think that you are right about Lady Macbeth being all talk and no action. Lady Macbeth is pretty much all about appearance vs. reality.
So basically Lady Macbeth has had a bad past...
Did this also contribute to her sleep walking?
Maybe the bullies we are taliking ab out are brothers??
erin, remember when she said that she would "bash her baby?" I think that was a clue that she knew from personal experience what a child means to its mother.
She acts like a bully now. She acts like a bully towards Macbeth. She taunts him and questions his manliness.
I agree, Ben. That's a very good point. I think that we could do a lot of comparison between that man and Macbeth. Perhaps that's another question for discussion?
I agree with what Tom just said about Lady Macbeth manipulating other people to do what she wants them to do.
I also think if she were a man she couldn't do it anyway, but maybe she could of if her mom didn't take her down.
I think so too, Kenna. She wants to appear tough, but she is really soft on the inside. This ties back to appearance vs. reality.
Lane, it could relate to the appearance vs. reality theme. Does she want to appear all macho so she can hide that fact that she is hurt from her past? She could want to cover up the reality of her life story by putting on the appearance of being a driven and strong woman.
I agree with that thing about her father. She had to have been hurt emotionaly hurt in her past. BUT do we ever find out if Lady Macbeth had children?
good point zach, how could someone so cruel suddenly feel guilty for something she didn't really do?
I am wondering where her mother and father came into the discussion...I think that when she said that she would have killed Duncan if he didn't look she was just making an exuse.
Interesting how so much of this story relates to tht theme of appearance vs. reality. Could this reflect something about Shakespeare's life? Maybe he modeled one of the characters after himself.
Well, LM well, urged Macbeth to commit the murder...Back to Maria k's comment...
I agree with ty that maybe she just used her "father" as an excuse because she is too weak to actually commit the action
Well what if she was a guy? What would have happened?
nice point daniel. Maybe he found himself doing this a LOT and I bet it's hard to stop, maybe the only way to get this out was to write a book to tell us about it...
I don't think that Piggy's Aunt played as big of a role in LOF as Lady Macbeth did in Macbeth.
Good point lindsey and to add onto that I think that she tries to hide that because she doesn't want others to know she is unhappy and she does that by controlling her husband and having him do what she wants him to
I think that if she had the same past, even as a guy, the outcome would be the same. I don't think that gender has much of a role in how you think in relation to things that have happened in your past and whatnot.
If something happened to her earlier in her life, I wonder if she has ever sleepwalked about that?
Up until the very end, she hid her emotions, as Tom said earlier. I think holding in this emotion ended up causing her to committ suicide.
You know how when people are unconfident with themselves that they try to pick on others? Is that kind of what is happening in the situation with Lady Macbeth and Macbeth? Good point Ayla
About LOF i think that having Piggy's name as a symbol is a way to show how he represents the "adult" world
Macduff and Macbeth seem like complete opposites. Is it odd that the person who kills Macbeth seems to be his complete opposite?
Erin, I agree with you. I also think that Jacka nd Piggy are that way.
Zach-
Would she still be all talk and no act do you think?
Going way back to Lady Macbeth manipulating people to do what she wants them to do, mainly Macbeth. You have to take into consideration the role women played in Elizabethan times. They didn't have too much power and couldn't make decisions and actions like killing someone. Macbeth is kind of like Lady Macbeth's puppet who she hides behind to go through with what she wants.
How would LOF be different if there had been girls on the island?
Actually, not really...i met this one person who was my complete opposite...I really wanted to hurt her...(stuck for two weeks...)
;)
Actually, not really...i met this one person who was my complete opposite...I really wanted to hurt her...(stuck for two weeks...)
;)
I think girls would have died on the island because they get tramitizeed ealier.
I think we all just had an epiphany! Piggy the boy and the Lord of the Flies? This vague connection between Piggy, representing sense and civilization, and the pig called the Lord of the Flies, representing anarchy and death, is very interesting.
hannah, was Jack nothing alike the pig he killed? I thought he was more of a pig than piggy. Maybe it ties back to how opposite attract, maybe you really don't like the person who is similar to you.
Interesting Sara. I think that girls would be worried about different things and therefore maybe died maybe have been rescued earlier.
Maybe inside Macduff was a lot like Macbeth- appearance vs. reality?
Head on stick...like domination...symbolisim...
Lane, I have a feeling that they wouldn't have turned into savages, but Golding wrote the book to show the flaws of mankind, not the flaws in the different genders.
Hmm... girls eh? I think that the only difference might be that they would have different priorities. Instead of just wanting to have fun, they might place a little more importance on getting rescued or, as all us guys know, keeping themselves looking B-E-A-Utiful. Other than that, I believe that the girls would act in the same general way.
I think the girls would have tried harder to get off the island. I also think that with girls there would have been less blood. However I think there more emotional scarring becuase girls tend to forget things slower.
WOW if girls were on the island, I think that there would be so much more order on the island. I think (no offence to guys) that girls have a better perspective of what is going on between everyone on the island. I think that everyone would have survived and everyone woud have got along.
Good point, Anna. Does this mean that the Lord of the Flies is Piggy's complete opposite?
With the heads on sticks I think it symbolizes victory and that it stood for power and what was to come.
Along with Erin's comment girls tend to be a lot more social and that is how they have conflict where as boys have more of a physical relation/conflict, so the if girls were on the island, they would have different motives then to kill the pig and other people.
I think if there were girls on the island, instead of tribes, there would be cliques, could that be worse?
I think it could end up the same but with less blood.
Emily
I think it was metaphorical.
At first I thought that the beast was real, now I think it was a metaphor. There wasn't anything to kill but themselves, becuase they were the rea beast that was truly taking over.
I think that the beast was just in everyone's imagination. One example is before Simon was killed, he thought that the Lord of the Flies, he couldn't really be talking to a dead pig.
Girl's wouldn't be as barbaric?!? I think not. When it comes down to it, girls and boys are both humans. It might have taken te girls a bit longer to turn savage, but I think that after being on the island for that long, anyone would become selfish and it would change from having fun to the thought that it's all about the survival of YOU. Girls and boys both can't resist the temptation to think that way.
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I agree with erin and they might have also used it as an excuse to gain more power and to satisfy their ambition
How does Roger play into this story?
Is wanting to survive really selfish? I think that is a quality that has allowed the human race to survive over the centuries. I think the line that separates the basic want of survival to being selfish is sort of a grey area.
Yeah girls are just the same or worse then boys. Girls are mean. There might be order at first but there would probably be crazyness later.
And also, similar to the boys, there would probably be one or two girls with common sense, but the rest would be totally selfish and try to be the most "popular" or something
When Jack, Ralph, and Roger thought they saw the beast, was that because they expected it to be there? It seems like ever since the beast was first mentioned, their whole life was consumed by the beast.
I'll epilepsy up in an actual dictionary...it just wasn't unpacked yet so i used my previous Engish teacher's fav. website...
Also, there is another relation between LOTF and Macbeth. The pig head on a stick in Lord of the Flies was said to "appease" the beast (Keep in mind that the beast represents bloodthirsiness in humankind.) In Macbeth, Macduff puts Macbeth's head on a sword, symbolizing the offering up of the tyrant to "appease" his own bloodthirstiness.
Wanting to survive is not selfish i dont think, however, in LOF I don't think that the boys are necessarily trying to survive at the end well at least not Jack. He is just trying to better himself to gain more power
I think the hallucinations stand for what happens with innosence.
I agree with Laura in that the boys are trying to prove themselves and not really trying to survive.
I think it symmbolizes that when we need to survive and we are in our last days we have to take over others.
Good question Maddy. I though that the little boy with the birthmark got killed by the fire, but maybe not...
While we are talking about characters...
I compared Jack to dictators...he seemed rather like Hitler...comparison to time and war??
I think that wanting to survive isn't selfish at first, but it can turn selfish. Think about it this way: say that you've been stuck on an island for, say, 60 days. An opportunity comes in the form of a lifeboat that fell off of a ship. It only fits 10 people, and there are 50 of you. I don't think that if you had been on an island for 60 days, you would say, "Oh, I think I'll let you ten be saved and I can just stay here for another couple of months." At that point, it becomes selfish. You would rather have yourself be saved than anyone else. When it comes right down to it, ALL humans are selfish.
The last chapter of Lord of the Flies, to me, was the most important one. In this chapter, the boys are rescued. They are consistently referred to as "little boys" and "children." This shows distinctly the loss of innocence, or more specifically, the boys' realization of their loss of innocence. Any thoughts or observations?
Why was Jack so desperate to kill the pig?? Was he trying to kill the pig so that he could prove himself?
I think killings upon killings happens by the brains behind the act, and by challenging.
Tom, that's exactly what I was getting at. As malicious as people may be, I think that's the necessary quality of humans that has facilitated our survival as a species.
I agree with Sarah about rationalising.
Joanne, i don't think that Jack had anything to do with it at least on purpose. The boys let the fire get out of hand just through ignorance.
joanne, I don't think Jack really cared what happened to anyone else. I wonder if he even noticed he was gone
What is why guyes and trying to gain everyones respect? Do you think that girls do the same thing?
I think that the theme of manliness shows up in both books. Is Jack or Ralph the better chief? Is Macbeth manly enough?
Here's a weak analogy that relates to getting comfortabe to killing. Remember back to your first dance in middle school. You were nervous to ask someone to dance because you didn't know what they would think. I was DEFINITELY that way. But once your friends convinced you that it was fun and you actually DID it, you became more comfortable and began asking more girls to dance. It's the satisfaction of knowing that if you did it once, you can do it again that drives people to go on "killing sprees".
Now I feel stupid. Tom what exactly does intrinsic mean?
That's what Golding was trying to get across.
What I was trying to say, but couldn't quite say it because I forgot... Okay, about the boys offering up the pig's head up to the beastie. When Simon was talking to the LOF (pig's head), which represented the devil and temptation. He told Simon that he should take on the beastie. And then they offer the pig's head on the stick to the beastie. They were afraid of the beastie and they wanted to get the beastie to go away. This kind of was the terrible thing that brought their demise. They have killed the thing that has brought on their fear. But did this make them better? Were they still evil or did their evilness die down?
This reminds me of the places where the people want to get back at their government. They will do anything to get what they want and bring down what they don't like. And once they kill that person or bring down the government, are they better off? Have they gained anything? Now they have no government. What will they do?
Then they have to make up a government and a set of rules LIKE LOF!! And then they want to bring down that government and then they do that and then start a new government. It is just a big circle where, because of human nature, no one can ever be happy, but once they do what they think they should, are they better off? Is what they want better for them than what they were opposed to in the first place?
Sorry this is long, but I can't get in word wise, so I had a lot to say>>> :)
Maddy, I think that's a great idea.
Back to what Ayla said, if Jack was the bad one and he challenged the system and one, and if Macbeth challenged the system(Duncan) and won, does this mean that in order to challenge the system you have to be evil? Do you have to be willing to do anything? I think that Ralph is definitely the good guy in the story, but he is also "The Man." Jack seems like the evil in LOF, but he is also "the rebel."
Umm... I don't think it's possible at this point to get more than period 2, but we can try. And i just realized that what Ayla just said about cookies is like what I said about middle school dances. Great job Ayla!
Zach that is exactly what I was getting at thanks for putting it in words.
So, laura, when we challenge the system, are we really challenging the government? Maybe on a smaller scale, like if we challenge a teacher. Does it work to challenge something as big as the government? Were either Macbeth or Jack sucessful?
I think challenging the system is in human nature.
I agree with Emily, and to add on to it people express and challenge the system in different ways
I agree with Maddy's idea.
Gotcha, Thanks Tom.
Yes, emiily, it definitely is. People want to rebel against the things they don't like and life, so it is definitely going to happen.
I agree with emily.
If you don't like something you want to go aginst it. It is like human nature.
Getting use to what we do is a part of being human.
I don't know...what about those pretty little southern bells, always being taken care of...or the classic princess getting rescued by the knight in shining armor
riley...does Lady Macduff really influence her husband/leader like Piggy does for Ralph?
I think that as Americans, we look back on the Revolutionary War and think that the Rebels are always the "Good Guys" and the system is the "Bad Guy," but in both of these stories, the system is the good guy.
Well what would happen if you stop, then what would happen? Would they go crazy amitt their guilt or what?
How do we define who is a good guy and who is a bad guy?
that was deep tom
I agree, Joanne. Also, Jack's pride in being the leader of the choir boys became challenged when Ralph came in. Because of his pride, he can't be lesser than Ralph.
The idea of realism vs. over-optimism (Ha! New word!)is very interesting in both of these books. Piggy represents realism, and Ralph represents the over-optimism. When Piggy is gone, Ralph truly realizes the severity of the situation, and he doesn't know quite what to do. In the end of Macbeth, Macbeth has become overly confident in himself, and he has decided that he is invincible. In the end, his confidence is obviously proven to be overdone. What one can tell from these, then, is that without the realist, the pessimist, if I may, bad things are bound to happen. (Now I sound like a pessimist...)
Good question erin...I think it depends on people's background and their morals
I love how this Macbeth discussion is now pretty much about LOF.
nice point erin, is the good guy just someone that we agree with and the bad guy the "mean" one?
I think we just topped period 2 guys. Nice job!
I totally agree with tom and laura
Erin
I don't know if you can actually define a good guy and a bad guy because eventually everyone can be bad or good.
I love it too, Kari!
Yay 200th comment!
Actually that's that 201st
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