Thursday, October 05, 2006

Live blogging period 5

202 Comments:

Blogger danh said...

Hi. Let's get this party started!

Thu Oct 05, 12:32:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Chang chang!!! lets go!

Thu Oct 05, 12:34:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

wow maria.
good.

Thu Oct 05, 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

Daniel, no useless comments.

Thu Oct 05, 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

This discussion is so enlightening!

Thu Oct 05, 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Man, this is one deep discussion...I think the whole reflection thing ties back to appearance vs. reality!

Thu Oct 05, 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

I agree, tom.

Thu Oct 05, 12:37:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

emilyl.
i think the apparitions are significant because they show macbeth what is in store for him, but also following the witches pattern of confusion. this is because we find that all of the apparitions come true, only not in the way macbeth expected.

Thu Oct 05, 12:37:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

good point Maria

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I think she was attached to her father.

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

yeah---I think that appearance vs. reality was the whole underlying point behind the whole play----it seemed like everything could be tied back to appearance vs. reality

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

I agree with Maria definitely. Appearance vs. Reality could the mirror in the apparation be a metaphor for something?

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Thanks lindsey

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

Do we know if Lady Macbeth even had any children??

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

I think it was more of an excuse than anything.nor

Thu Oct 05, 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

It reminds me of the recent school shooting in the Amish community. He did it because of things that happened to him long ago.

Thu Oct 05, 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

ya lindsey, they made Macbeth over confident so that they could be sure he will take action and think that NO ONE can undo him. I think this tells us a lot about ourselves as humans, since overconfidence can be the biggest downfall.

Thu Oct 05, 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

I don't think we can know for sure what happened to Lady Macbeth in her past and for that matter if something happened. Maybe she was always power hungry and the opprotunity given to Macbeth triggered it. Our answers seem to be the same as when we last asked this question.

Thu Oct 05, 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Not to be rude or anything but how does Lady Macbeth's past relate to the story and the main themes? Does it actually matter?

Thu Oct 05, 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

i think also that maybe something has happenned with her father, which may also be why she is so powere hungry and dependant

Thu Oct 05, 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I agree with the apperance vs. reality because she says one thing and acts the other.

Thu Oct 05, 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

Lindsey, I think that you are right about Lady Macbeth being all talk and no action. Lady Macbeth is pretty much all about appearance vs. reality.

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

It does seem like Lady Macbeth is all talk, with no actions---she never follows through...

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

So basically Lady Macbeth has had a bad past...

Did this also contribute to her sleep walking?

Maybe the bullies we are taliking ab out are brothers??

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Yes, because it could explain her motives and why she turned out the way she did--integral to the story.

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

erin, remember when she said that she would "bash her baby?" I think that was a clue that she knew from personal experience what a child means to its mother.

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

Erin- before I remember that we discussed it and their was proof that thay had children.

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

She acts like a bully now. She acts like a bully towards Macbeth. She taunts him and questions his manliness.

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

I agree, Ben. That's a very good point. I think that we could do a lot of comparison between that man and Macbeth. Perhaps that's another question for discussion?

Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

Lady Macbeth all talk no game. How could this psychological scar affect the way she acts? Why does she feel so guilty all of a sudden?

Thu Oct 05, 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

I agree with what Tom just said about Lady Macbeth manipulating other people to do what she wants them to do.

Thu Oct 05, 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Again---appearance vs. reality----Lady Macbeth wants to appear that she is brave and strong and determined, but really she is scared and is just trying to get Macbeth do do things

Thu Oct 05, 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I also think if she were a man she couldn't do it anyway, but maybe she could of if her mom didn't take her down.

Thu Oct 05, 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyA said...

She was sleep walking so much because she could never get the murders out of her mind and she felt guilty for planning it.

Thu Oct 05, 12:41:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Maria, how exactly does that show she knows what a child means to its mother? Seems like the opposite to me.

I agree that Lady Macbeth is just covering up for her insecurities with all her bravado.

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

lane.
i think it does because she is obviously very headstrong and she wants to be in control, and this may have been brought on by something in her past. this relates to the main theme because without her wanting to gain power by getting macbeth to be king qould never have happened if she was not so, well for lack of a better word, pushy.

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I think so too, Kenna. She wants to appear tough, but she is really soft on the inside. This ties back to appearance vs. reality.

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Lane, it could relate to the appearance vs. reality theme. Does she want to appear all macho so she can hide that fact that she is hurt from her past? She could want to cover up the reality of her life story by putting on the appearance of being a driven and strong woman.

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

I agree with that thing about her father. She had to have been hurt emotionaly hurt in her past. BUT do we ever find out if Lady Macbeth had children?

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

I think that all of Lady Macbeths guilt may be finally catching up with her, towards the end of the play, and she is realizing all that she has caused---and also she may be figuring out that people are catching on to what they have been doing

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

good point zach, how could someone so cruel suddenly feel guilty for something she didn't really do?

Thu Oct 05, 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I am wondering where her mother and father came into the discussion...I think that when she said that she would have killed Duncan if he didn't look she was just making an exuse.

Thu Oct 05, 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Rileys said...

Zach-
The mirror could be a metaphor that Banquo is a double of Macbeth and that when he sees Banquo holding a reflective glass, it shows that though Banquo and Macbeth are similar, Banquo has better qualities and therefore became king.

Another question, Macbeth and Macduff have similar names, both were generals in the army, but both have wives with similar but different characteristics. Both are called Lady Macsomethin', one relies on her husband and is devestated when he leaves, while the other manipulates her husband. And both die.

How many other people are doubles or similar yet different, which I know Shakespeare loves to do. Create doubles and opposites.

Thu Oct 05, 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Interesting how so much of this story relates to tht theme of appearance vs. reality. Could this reflect something about Shakespeare's life? Maybe he modeled one of the characters after himself.

Thu Oct 05, 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

It is definitely takes being what you hate to defeat it--much easier with firsthand experience.

Macbeth is just an outlet for all of Lady Macbeth's pent-up range; his conflicting feelings make him an especially malleable tool.

Thu Oct 05, 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Well, LM well, urged Macbeth to commit the murder...Back to Maria k's comment...

Thu Oct 05, 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

I agree with ty that maybe she just used her "father" as an excuse because she is too weak to actually commit the action

Thu Oct 05, 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

The look of her father maybe an excuse for not killing Duncan. She does have an opportunity to be powerful finally, good idea Ben. LAdy Macbeth's taunts of Macbeth could relate back to how she was treated as a child. Hates herself because she's powerful.

Thu Oct 05, 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

i think ayla made a good point about lady macbeth hating herself because she is realizing how she is, but she does not seem to like that

Thu Oct 05, 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Well what if she was a guy? What would have happened?

Thu Oct 05, 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

Lady Macbeth is all about appearance vs. reality because her reality starts to show towards the end of the book just before she dies. Her act starts to crack when she sleepwalks. The mask she showed about being upset about Duncan falls away, and she dies because of this.

Thu Oct 05, 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Lady Macbeth hid all her guilt--it all comes out at the end, when she is wringing her hands, trying to get rid of her blood. She was just hiding it before to make herself appear less vulnerable.

Thu Oct 05, 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

nice point daniel. Maybe he found himself doing this a LOT and I bet it's hard to stop, maybe the only way to get this out was to write a book to tell us about it...

Thu Oct 05, 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I don't think that Piggy's Aunt played as big of a role in LOF as Lady Macbeth did in Macbeth.

Thu Oct 05, 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

Good point lindsey and to add onto that I think that she tries to hide that because she doesn't want others to know she is unhappy and she does that by controlling her husband and having him do what she wants him to

Thu Oct 05, 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

I think that if she had the same past, even as a guy, the outcome would be the same. I don't think that gender has much of a role in how you think in relation to things that have happened in your past and whatnot.

Thu Oct 05, 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

Shelby-
I think if she was a guy she'd strive to be in Macbeth's position of power so she has authority over all instead of just being a queen.

Thu Oct 05, 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

If something happened to her earlier in her life, I wonder if she has ever sleepwalked about that?

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Up until the very end, she hid her emotions, as Tom said earlier. I think holding in this emotion ended up causing her to committ suicide.

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

You know how when people are unconfident with themselves that they try to pick on others? Is that kind of what is happening in the situation with Lady Macbeth and Macbeth? Good point Ayla

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

I think with the comment about not killing Duncan because he looked like her father has to do w/ her relationship w/ Macbeth. They don't really seem to love each other. She is willing to let Macbeth get killed, but not her father. Her father always loved her and then she got married to someone who doesn't love her and that brings on some of her bad qualities and cruel personality.

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

About Annas comment that their wives may be influencing Macbeth and Macduff----I agree, there can be people who are both "innocent" but after they are around people who influence them---they can be changed and influenced, for better or worse---which may have been the case for Macbeth

I think that if Macbeth would have been a good King if he would have just naturally become king, he would have been a much better one than how he was as a king under his wife's influence and all of this pressure from the witches prophecies

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

About LOF i think that having Piggy's name as a symbol is a way to show how he represents the "adult" world

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Macduff and Macbeth seem like complete opposites. Is it odd that the person who kills Macbeth seems to be his complete opposite?

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

shelby.
i think her being a man would have totally thrown off her being because she seems that she wants all of the power, just like a man would. But she has a problem going for that so if she were a man, i dont think she would have been so self consience or she would have kept her same ideals and just not have gone for it because she would be too scared.

Thu Oct 05, 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

Maria-
If she sleepwalked about that maybe it could relate to her restlessness towards the end of the play.

Thu Oct 05, 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Erin, I agree with you. I also think that Jacka nd Piggy are that way.

Thu Oct 05, 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Zach-

Would she still be all talk and no act do you think?

Thu Oct 05, 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

Going way back to Lady Macbeth manipulating people to do what she wants them to do, mainly Macbeth. You have to take into consideration the role women played in Elizabethan times. They didn't have too much power and couldn't make decisions and actions like killing someone. Macbeth is kind of like Lady Macbeth's puppet who she hides behind to go through with what she wants.

Thu Oct 05, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

i agree with laura because he seems to be the most logical of the bunch and most adults are more logical than cildren who are more creative

Thu Oct 05, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

How would LOF be different if there had been girls on the island?

Thu Oct 05, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Actually, not really...i met this one person who was my complete opposite...I really wanted to hurt her...(stuck for two weeks...)

;)

Thu Oct 05, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Actually, not really...i met this one person who was my complete opposite...I really wanted to hurt her...(stuck for two weeks...)

;)

Thu Oct 05, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

I think girls would have died on the island because they get tramitizeed ealier.

Thu Oct 05, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Golding's point was about the nature of HUMANITY, rather than males', then I expect it would have played out similarly.

Thu Oct 05, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

I think we all just had an epiphany! Piggy the boy and the Lord of the Flies? This vague connection between Piggy, representing sense and civilization, and the pig called the Lord of the Flies, representing anarchy and death, is very interesting.

Thu Oct 05, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

hannah, was Jack nothing alike the pig he killed? I thought he was more of a pig than piggy. Maybe it ties back to how opposite attract, maybe you really don't like the person who is similar to you.

Thu Oct 05, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

erin: to build on what you said, is that what happens in LOF, too? Do all the boys pick on Piggy because they feel insecure?

People join together in mobs to survive. Mob behavior can carry people away, lose themselves in the crowd. Do mobs always destroy or put down the only voice of reason?

Thu Oct 05, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Interesting Sara. I think that girls would be worried about different things and therefore maybe died maybe have been rescued earlier.

Thu Oct 05, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Maybe inside Macduff was a lot like Macbeth- appearance vs. reality?

Thu Oct 05, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Head on stick...like domination...symbolisim...

Thu Oct 05, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Lane, I have a feeling that they wouldn't have turned into savages, but Golding wrote the book to show the flaws of mankind, not the flaws in the different genders.

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Hmm... girls eh? I think that the only difference might be that they would have different priorities. Instead of just wanting to have fun, they might place a little more importance on getting rescued or, as all us guys know, keeping themselves looking B-E-A-Utiful. Other than that, I believe that the girls would act in the same general way.

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

I think the girls would have tried harder to get off the island. I also think that with girls there would have been less blood. However I think there more emotional scarring becuase girls tend to forget things slower.

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Rileys said...

Well, sticking heads of defeated enemies is originally viewed of as being used by barbarians, but one of it's origins was originally from Ninjitsu where they killed and mauled up the faces and placed them on pikes to intimidate their enemies. Who would want to go to battle thinking that if you lose your face is going to look like the one on the pike.
Why do the boys originally adopt this as their way of operating.
Also, the boys start to hallucinate and the pigs head becomes the lord of the flies, and starts to talk to Simon.
The pigs head is used to sacrifice and appease the beast and bring peace to your tribe. While Macduff killed Macbeth and placed it on his sword and brought peace.

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

Lane- I wonder how they would have treated the girls. They hated and treated the littluns badly and at that time women weren't equal to men. So, would the boys treat them politely or as inferiors.

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

WOW if girls were on the island, I think that there would be so much more order on the island. I think (no offence to guys) that girls have a better perspective of what is going on between everyone on the island. I think that everyone would have survived and everyone woud have got along.

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

Good point, Anna. Does this mean that the Lord of the Flies is Piggy's complete opposite?

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

i agree with emily because i think that girs would have rationalized more about some of the situation where as the boys became more barbaric

Thu Oct 05, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

The head on the stick represents power it may make people fear and/or respect Macduff, obviously showing that he dominated a king in battle and now he is supreme.

Thu Oct 05, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

With the heads on sticks I think it symbolizes victory and that it stood for power and what was to come.

Thu Oct 05, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyA said...

So was the beastie metaphorical? Or was it suppose to be a real creature?

Thu Oct 05, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

Along with Erin's comment girls tend to be a lot more social and that is how they have conflict where as boys have more of a physical relation/conflict, so the if girls were on the island, they would have different motives then to kill the pig and other people.

Thu Oct 05, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

I think if there were girls on the island, instead of tribes, there would be cliques, could that be worse?

Thu Oct 05, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

About girls on the island in LOTF---I think that in some ways the girls would be worse off and I also think that in other ways they would be better of

ie. I think that the girls wouldnt have so much of an obsession with hunting---actually I think they might even be afraid to hunt; they would probably just eat the fruit. But anyways, I dont think they would fight so much about whether or not to hunt and keep the fire going------but they would probably have more issues with deciding who was in charge and how to get along with eachother---and they would probably be a lot more emotional about all of the sittuations

Thu Oct 05, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

I think it could end up the same but with less blood.

Thu Oct 05, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

So LOF has kill or get killed interpretation to man, survival of the fittest.

Thu Oct 05, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Emily

I think it was metaphorical.

Thu Oct 05, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Maria---about the cliques---I do agree that may cause an even bigger problem---because there would be so many different cliques they would all be competing with eachother constantly

Thu Oct 05, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

At first I thought that the beast was real, now I think it was a metaphor. There wasn't anything to kill but themselves, becuase they were the rea beast that was truly taking over.

Thu Oct 05, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I think that the beast was just in everyone's imagination. One example is before Simon was killed, he thought that the Lord of the Flies, he couldn't really be talking to a dead pig.

Thu Oct 05, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Girl's wouldn't be as barbaric?!? I think not. When it comes down to it, girls and boys are both humans. It might have taken te girls a bit longer to turn savage, but I think that after being on the island for that long, anyone would become selfish and it would change from having fun to the thought that it's all about the survival of YOU. Girls and boys both can't resist the temptation to think that way.

Thu Oct 05, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyA said...

Yes Maria, i think if there were cliques, along with the whole girls on the island thing, that it could be worse. The girls would start to fight eachother instead of trying to work together to get off the island. They would compete against other groups and try to get off the island first.

Thu Oct 05, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thu Oct 05, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Madison, about the cliques competing against each other--isn't that essentially what happened with the tribes?

Thu Oct 05, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

I agree with erin and they might have also used it as an excuse to gain more power and to satisfy their ambition

Thu Oct 05, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

I think the beast was just everyone's fears being universal so instead of everyone having a different fear they share teh same one.

Thu Oct 05, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

With girls on the island, I think the same end would have happened: anarchy, chaos, etc. but in a different way. Girls tend to be more vicious, but not nearly as physical. The girls would have formed their cliques earlier, but they would have fought to traumatize each others' feelings.

Thu Oct 05, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

How does Roger play into this story?

Thu Oct 05, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Is wanting to survive really selfish? I think that is a quality that has allowed the human race to survive over the centuries. I think the line that separates the basic want of survival to being selfish is sort of a grey area.

Thu Oct 05, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

Yeah girls are just the same or worse then boys. Girls are mean. There might be order at first but there would probably be crazyness later.

Thu Oct 05, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

And also, similar to the boys, there would probably be one or two girls with common sense, but the rest would be totally selfish and try to be the most "popular" or something

Thu Oct 05, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

When Jack, Ralph, and Roger thought they saw the beast, was that because they expected it to be there? It seems like ever since the beast was first mentioned, their whole life was consumed by the beast.

Thu Oct 05, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Kari, in the end, I think it's more about if the ends justify the means. Is it worth it to kill others for your own personal survival?

Thu Oct 05, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger Rileys said...

Was it really a storm that brought the plane down. I just wanted to throw this out there, but the boys say somewhere in the front of the book that they got shot down and that one of the boys said that he overheard the pilot say something like they are all dead. Like there is a war going on and someplace relevant was bombed.
I just wanted to throw that out there.

Thu Oct 05, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

I'll epilepsy up in an actual dictionary...it just wasn't unpacked yet so i used my previous Engish teacher's fav. website...

Thu Oct 05, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

What type of girl would step up and be a leader on the island?

Thu Oct 05, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

This is going back pretty far, but if the beastie is metaphorical then what happened the little boy with the birthmark

Thu Oct 05, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

Also, there is another relation between LOTF and Macbeth. The pig head on a stick in Lord of the Flies was said to "appease" the beast (Keep in mind that the beast represents bloodthirsiness in humankind.) In Macbeth, Macduff puts Macbeth's head on a sword, symbolizing the offering up of the tyrant to "appease" his own bloodthirstiness.

Thu Oct 05, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

Wanting to survive is not selfish i dont think, however, in LOF I don't think that the boys are necessarily trying to survive at the end well at least not Jack. He is just trying to better himself to gain more power

Thu Oct 05, 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I think the hallucinations stand for what happens with innosence.

Thu Oct 05, 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

Roger is the torturer for Jack. What does that symbolize in the society?

Thu Oct 05, 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

Once a brutal act is comitted is there any coming back or does the person remain blood thirsty?

Thu Oct 05, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

i agree with erin beciuse where as boys take out there actions physically, girls tend to go to a much deeper level nd try to bring up every single insecurity, problem, and knot that girl has about herself.

Thu Oct 05, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

I agree with Laura in that the boys are trying to prove themselves and not really trying to survive.

Thu Oct 05, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger Rileys said...

Roger jumps on the bandwagon of the winning side

Thu Oct 05, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I think it symmbolizes that when we need to survive and we are in our last days we have to take over others.

Thu Oct 05, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

Good question Maddy. I though that the little boy with the birthmark got killed by the fire, but maybe not...

Thu Oct 05, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

i agree with erin and laura that the boys are trying to gain pride dfor themselves

Thu Oct 05, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

While we are talking about characters...

I compared Jack to dictators...he seemed rather like Hitler...comparison to time and war??

Thu Oct 05, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

I think that wanting to survive isn't selfish at first, but it can turn selfish. Think about it this way: say that you've been stuck on an island for, say, 60 days. An opportunity comes in the form of a lifeboat that fell off of a ship. It only fits 10 people, and there are 50 of you. I don't think that if you had been on an island for 60 days, you would say, "Oh, I think I'll let you ten be saved and I can just stay here for another couple of months." At that point, it becomes selfish. You would rather have yourself be saved than anyone else. When it comes right down to it, ALL humans are selfish.

Thu Oct 05, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

I agree with everyone else here how Roger waits for the opportunity to strike--he doesn't do anything shocking in order to gain Jack's favour. This is again about appearance vs. reality; his motives are masked by his acts.

Thu Oct 05, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thu Oct 05, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

When does a person become satisfied after killing people?

Thu Oct 05, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

The last chapter of Lord of the Flies, to me, was the most important one. In this chapter, the boys are rescued. They are consistently referred to as "little boys" and "children." This shows distinctly the loss of innocence, or more specifically, the boys' realization of their loss of innocence. Any thoughts or observations?

Thu Oct 05, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

to answer maddys question, i think it was metaphorical and the littlte boy does not neccesarily prove its not because they were on an island where they did not know anything aout it and the littlw boy may have just gotten lost or something

Thu Oct 05, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

Why was Jack so desperate to kill the pig?? Was he trying to kill the pig so that he could prove himself?

Thu Oct 05, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I think killings upon killings happens by the brains behind the act, and by challenging.

Thu Oct 05, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

I wondered whether Jack had something to do with the disappearance of the little boy.

Thu Oct 05, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Tom, that's exactly what I was getting at. As malicious as people may be, I think that's the necessary quality of humans that has facilitated our survival as a species.

Thu Oct 05, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

erin
he wanted to prove he was man eneough to and to gain the oters respect

Thu Oct 05, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Zach---I think that once a person (Macbeth) has killed a person---he suddenly becomes more comfortable with killing because he has done it before, and therefore---he doesnt have such a problem with it anymore

Thu Oct 05, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I agree with Sarah about rationalising.

Thu Oct 05, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Zach---I think that once a person (Macbeth) has killed a person---he suddenly becomes more comfortable with killing because he has done it before, and therefore---he doesnt have such a problem with it anymore

Thu Oct 05, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

Joanne, i don't think that Jack had anything to do with it at least on purpose. The boys let the fire get out of hand just through ignorance.

Thu Oct 05, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

Why out of all the pigs did Jack go for the mother pig who's babies were eating from.

Thu Oct 05, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

joanne, I don't think Jack really cared what happened to anyone else. I wonder if he even noticed he was gone

Thu Oct 05, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

Is there symbolisis in what happened to Piggy's glasses when they broke? Like, they lost the eyes of reason when they broke the glasses? Didn't they kill Simon right after that incident?

Thu Oct 05, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

Piggy had Ralph's back.

Thu Oct 05, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

What is why guyes and trying to gain everyones respect? Do you think that girls do the same thing?

Thu Oct 05, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

I think that is an intrinsic quality of people in general.

Thu Oct 05, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

I think that the theme of manliness shows up in both books. Is Jack or Ralph the better chief? Is Macbeth manly enough?

Thu Oct 05, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Here's a weak analogy that relates to getting comfortabe to killing. Remember back to your first dance in middle school. You were nervous to ask someone to dance because you didn't know what they would think. I was DEFINITELY that way. But once your friends convinced you that it was fun and you actually DID it, you became more comfortable and began asking more girls to dance. It's the satisfaction of knowing that if you did it once, you can do it again that drives people to go on "killing sprees".

Thu Oct 05, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Now I feel stupid. Tom what exactly does intrinsic mean?

Thu Oct 05, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

That's what Golding was trying to get across.

Thu Oct 05, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

Okay everyone, lets try to beat the # of comments that period 2 had!

Thu Oct 05, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

What I was trying to say, but couldn't quite say it because I forgot... Okay, about the boys offering up the pig's head up to the beastie. When Simon was talking to the LOF (pig's head), which represented the devil and temptation. He told Simon that he should take on the beastie. And then they offer the pig's head on the stick to the beastie. They were afraid of the beastie and they wanted to get the beastie to go away. This kind of was the terrible thing that brought their demise. They have killed the thing that has brought on their fear. But did this make them better? Were they still evil or did their evilness die down?
This reminds me of the places where the people want to get back at their government. They will do anything to get what they want and bring down what they don't like. And once they kill that person or bring down the government, are they better off? Have they gained anything? Now they have no government. What will they do?
Then they have to make up a government and a set of rules LIKE LOF!! And then they want to bring down that government and then they do that and then start a new government. It is just a big circle where, because of human nature, no one can ever be happy, but once they do what they think they should, are they better off? Is what they want better for them than what they were opposed to in the first place?

Sorry this is long, but I can't get in word wise, so I had a lot to say>>> :)

Thu Oct 05, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

I agree with Lane is another theme of these books pride?

Thu Oct 05, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

On the killing note, Simon's death wasn't really planned. He was killed out of fear. But the boys planned to kill Piggy and Ralph with the rock if they ever came and tried to take over the tribe or even tried to reason with Jack.

Thu Oct 05, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Maddy, I think that's a great idea.

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

Back to what Ayla said, if Jack was the bad one and he challenged the system and one, and if Macbeth challenged the system(Duncan) and won, does this mean that in order to challenge the system you have to be evil? Do you have to be willing to do anything? I think that Ralph is definitely the good guy in the story, but he is also "The Man." Jack seems like the evil in LOF, but he is also "the rebel."

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyA said...

LIke someone said earlier.. How long can challenging the system go on for? Forever?

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Umm... I don't think it's possible at this point to get more than period 2, but we can try. And i just realized that what Ayla just said about cookies is like what I said about middle school dances. Great job Ayla!

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Zach that is exactly what I was getting at thanks for putting it in words.

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyA said...

I think killing just becomes a normal routine and so you can keep going on with murders.

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Lane, intrinsic is like "natural" or "instinctive." A quality at the core of humanity, in this case.

Thu Oct 05, 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

So, laura, when we challenge the system, are we really challenging the government? Maybe on a smaller scale, like if we challenge a teacher. Does it work to challenge something as big as the government? Were either Macbeth or Jack sucessful?

Thu Oct 05, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

I think challenging the system is in human nature.

Thu Oct 05, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

Daniel of course we can beat them if you keep writing.

Thu Oct 05, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger Rileys said...

Piggy = Lady Macduff
Ralph = Lady Macbeth

Jack = Macbeth
Roger = Lady Macbeth

Piggy ends up dying in the book as well as Lady Macduff, and he depends on Ralph to protect him and feels defensless when Ralph leaves him, just like Lady Macduff, Ralph is than outraged at Jack and wants revenge.

Jack is power hungry and controls the tribe while Roger is there to take his place, Roger doesn't die like Lady Macbeth but he is conniving and sneaky but very capable of leading.

Thu Oct 05, 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

I agree with Emily, and to add on to it people express and challenge the system in different ways

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

I agree with Maddy's idea.

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Gotcha, Thanks Tom.

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Yes, emiily, it definitely is. People want to rebel against the things they don't like and life, so it is definitely going to happen.

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

I agree with emily.
If you don't like something you want to go aginst it. It is like human nature.

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Getting use to what we do is a part of being human.

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

I don't know...what about those pretty little southern bells, always being taken care of...or the classic princess getting rescued by the knight in shining armor

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

We may not beat period 2 in number, but of course our comments are way more in-depth. :)

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

Now that you mention it, I think pride is a part of challenging the system. Macbeth is proud, and he can't admit that he killed Duncan. Then he killed more and more people to cover up waht he did and to cover his position as king. He's also proud that he's king, that the witches chose HIM to be king, not Banquo.

Thu Oct 05, 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

riley...does Lady Macduff really influence her husband/leader like Piggy does for Ralph?

Thu Oct 05, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger lindseyc said...

thats deep ben

Thu Oct 05, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I think that as Americans, we look back on the Revolutionary War and think that the Rebels are always the "Good Guys" and the system is the "Bad Guy," but in both of these stories, the system is the good guy.

Thu Oct 05, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Well what would happen if you stop, then what would happen? Would they go crazy amitt their guilt or what?

Thu Oct 05, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

I agree Ben---it is almost easier to sympathize or empathize with an individual person---but it is hard when there is so many people---and it is also like when we hear more about deaths, we become more "comfortable" with it, sadly, and we dont think as much about it because we hear about it so much

Thu Oct 05, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

How do we define who is a good guy and who is a bad guy?

Thu Oct 05, 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

that was deep tom

Thu Oct 05, 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

I agree, Joanne. Also, Jack's pride in being the leader of the choir boys became challenged when Ralph came in. Because of his pride, he can't be lesser than Ralph.

Thu Oct 05, 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

The idea of realism vs. over-optimism (Ha! New word!)is very interesting in both of these books. Piggy represents realism, and Ralph represents the over-optimism. When Piggy is gone, Ralph truly realizes the severity of the situation, and he doesn't know quite what to do. In the end of Macbeth, Macbeth has become overly confident in himself, and he has decided that he is invincible. In the end, his confidence is obviously proven to be overdone. What one can tell from these, then, is that without the realist, the pessimist, if I may, bad things are bound to happen. (Now I sound like a pessimist...)

Thu Oct 05, 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

Good question erin...I think it depends on people's background and their morals

Thu Oct 05, 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Erin, I believe that is one of the fundamental questions humans and society in general are trying to answer.

Thu Oct 05, 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger Maddyg said...

How are the boys who were murderers going to be punished? Will they at all?

Thu Oct 05, 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I love how this Macbeth discussion is now pretty much about LOF.

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

nice point erin, is the good guy just someone that we agree with and the bad guy the "mean" one?

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger JoanneH said...

laura: yes, she does. She convices Macbeth to kill Duncan and then to kill other threats to him. Her methods are different( telling Macbeth he's not a man) but their end is the same.

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

I think we just topped period 2 guys. Nice job!

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

I totally agree with tom and laura

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger Zachf said...

Ty-
I guess it all just depends on perspective because after the Rebels won in the US and Americans were happy about that dont you think loyalists would have though that was challenging the system for worse.

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Erin

I don't know if you can actually define a good guy and a bad guy because eventually everyone can be bad or good.

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger AnnaD said...

I love it too, Kari!

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger Rileys said...

Erin-
You judge someone based off of their actions in life towards whats positive and what's negative
and you do have to create a scale

Thu Oct 05, 01:17:00 PM  

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