Live Blogging per.2
posted by annes @ 8:36 AM
Smith's 9th Honors Class Blog
Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
Contributors
- elyseh
- Kjerstinl
- Adriana
- Karl Fisch
- HarryPotterFreak(danh)
- shaunam
- Unknown
- Connor DUCETIME
- AnnaD
- annes
- Alex_Manning
- Anoel
- Mphair
- jbarry
- Kim C. 2010
- Spencer Z
- Tom
- bawachmu
- Hannah J
- KendraS2009
- KariB
- maddyg
- emilya
- Shelbyb-dad
- sarahc
- LindsayS
- briang
- krump
- Alexaaaaa
- Dan
- Declan "Danger"
- tanal
- adamb
- Lisa Madsen Crellin
- endsleye
- TyC
- Shelby B.
- Unknown
- EmilyLu
- Unknown
- saram
- Aylar
- EmilyH
- Laurab
- hannahs
- alexd
- Phillip
- zachf
- michelleg
- chelseah
- lindsey c
- KathrynT
- Kaity
- Shelbyb-mom
- paigen
Previous Posts
- Macbeth Test Questions-Period 5
- Macbeth Test Questions-Period 2
- Dan Maas visit
- Macbeth Act 5
- LOF connections to Macbeth
- Act 4 questions
- LOF question ch 7-8 p.2
- Act 3 Questions
- LOF question period 2
- Act 2 questions continued...
103 Comments:
What do you mean by that?
What do you mean is it good to be "man"? Do you mean rather then a women?
Paige I agree with you.
I agree with Alee when she said that night and when we sleep, is like a way to hide from the 'evil' that happens at night..it's a very good point.
Shakespeare and Golding are saying that people are capable of incredible transformation through tough circumstances. Macbeth had to fulfill the prophecy of the witches and transformed himself from a soldier to a murderer. The boys transformed themselves from innocent and not wanting to kill a pig to actually killing eachother. They finally stopped when the naval officer appeared and snapped them back to the reality that they were commiting murderous actions.
elyse, do you mean, is it good to be human? or a man rather than a woman?
I think it is good to be man because it isn't only man who is murdered in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies. In Lord of the Flies the pigs and animals are killed for evil, power, and food also.
I think they are saying that in human nature, we will eventually challenge the system. You can only control someone for so long before they break free and rebel. Just one example from the top of my head is that Malcolm came to fight Macbeth after being under his tyranic rule for some time. And Jack was under Ralphs rule for a while and he eventually broke free. I think the authors are saying that you can only control people for so long.
But if the boys tried to wear a mask when they killed Simon, why did everyone know who did it. I really don't think that the night is covering up for the boys killing in LOTF because it's so obvious and they all know who did it.
To adriana, it is bad because there will then be conflict that will never end because everyone thinks they're better and that they deserve power.
Men think that they are better, and it has always been like that and it always will be. There is nothing we can do to change that, even if we try. They are just "wired" like that? I don't think that there is always a positive or negative side to that. For example, men do things that are good, and not so good just depending on the situation.
adriana, instinctivly, men always think that they're better and more powerful. Even today, the president has always been a man. I think that it's not a bad thing, until they get so power-hungry that it gets out of control. Like in Macbeth where he's willing to kill even his best friend to get to the throne, but it back-fires on him.
Men are twisted, but the beauty of the human race is that we have the capability to make our own decisions, wether that is a good decision or a hurtful one.
But, if you kill enough the morals will disappear all together and you cn keep on killing without feeling guilt.
In respone to elyse-- I think that it may not be a good thing necissarily, but more of a thing of being courageous and brave instead of being weak. People want to be looked up tp and seen as a brave person. If you appear weak, then people might not want to be with you as much. It appears to be this way in Macbeth when hs manhood is challenged by Lady Macbeth. Macbeth is the husband and he is supossed to be the courageous man who protects his wife. Thus, it is jind of a n insult to say that he isn't that brave man who takes the lead and is brave.
I think that the authors are just trying to say that human nature is to be evil. When we are being looked at by others, we pretend to be caring and considerate people, but when no one's looking we show our true side. When the opportunity arises, we take what we want and forget about trying to be righteous or pure.
I agree with Sara, in that peoples moods and behahiors are different at night. I also see a connection between LOTF and Macbeth in that when a character is killed, he/she is usually a main theme of the book. There is usually a idden message in the after math of the death. The storm after Simon is killed, and also the ghost of Banquo coming back to haunt Macbeths thoughts: blood will hae blood...
Off of what Adriana said, that probably the reasons that the boys in LOF became savages is beacuse of the lack of rules. I think at first when the boys crashed on the island they followed the rules. But once they started to realize that they didn't have any adults with them and they didn't have to follow rules, they became wild and able to do whatever they wanted. And because they could do whatever they wanted, they became savages. And once Macbeth became King, he made the rules, so he wasn't sure what to do with himself and killed everyone who was able to take over his power.
Alee, I agree with you that there was a touch of evil in everybody.
Parents guide you, so Lady Macbeth is kind of like Macbeths mom I guess at the beginning of the play. And I think in LOF there was an absence of women because women tend to be more responsible and grown up.
On alex's comment.... I think simon's encounter with the Lord of the Flies is similar to christ and the devil
well this is kind of off topic, but why weren't there any girls on the island in Lord of the Flies? was is just coincidence that the plane that crashed was full of boys?
would all the fighting have happened on the island about who should be the cheif if there were girls there?
Yea Brian you are right, but Macbeth is kind of the son that grows up and makes his own decisions.
On my comment, I didn't quite finish...Simons death represents the bare, barbaric qualities of the human race, and the storm is almost playing the role of an uncivilized person
It wasn't a coincidence because if they were going to a boarding school it would have been all males.
hannahj~ i think that there weren't any girls on the island because they were going to or from boarding school, like and all boys boarding school.
Yea alex, but the thing is that they convince themselves that they were justified in the murder
Piggy seems to be the only one to remain sane during the boys experience on the island, until he is killed...what kind of message does this send?
This is kind of off what hannahj said, why isn't there women on the island? And if there was adults on the plane, was it coincidence that they all died?
Piggy's aunt was more of a sheltering character and really told Piggy how he was supposed to be and not that she didn't care. I think she might of cared too much that Piggy didn't really become his own person and he really didn't get to experience too much because he was always doing "the right thing" and he wasn't outgoing.
ooh that makes sense. and also what sara said that the whole story could have been different since girls are 2 whole years ahead of guys on the maturity level. girls tend to be more responsible and probably wouldn't have let anyone get killed.
In response to alex, that those who don't conform are outcasted and in this case killled
I think that when you're in situations like that, you have to be able to adjust.
alexm- i think that one of the reasons that piggy is killed is because the rest of the boys don't like him, because he disagrees with all of their standards. they may be scared of him, and don't know how to handle all of his comments and concerns.
Josh: Yea, it seems like all deaths can be justified by (in some cases) ignorant groups, and somtimes its too bad.
i dont really know what you guys are talking about but i just have to say that i just realized that piggy is alot like neville in harry potter. Piggy has his aunt, Neville has his grandma and they are both really really really overbearing, both their real parents are unable to take care of them... just a connection.
sarah....th Lof was the pig on the head that simon ran into and was the evil in everyone. He caused the death
I said in the discussion that Piggy's aunt kind of spoiled him and didn't seem to be very effective as a parent. I also agree with what emily said about his aunt also having a lot of rules. I agree that she is overbearing about things like Piggy's safety and his asthma, but she also spoiled him by always giving him sweets and doting on him.
sarah, I have the same question too. I found it hard to actually picture what LOF looked like. When Simon had run away and the LOF started talking to him and making him kind of nervous..I got lost in that part of the book.
It was the pig on the stick
sarahc i don't know what the curtain was, but the LOF was the pigs head that jack and his group cut of to put on a stake. The head was left there to rot i guess and the flies were drawn to it and that is why they called it Lord of the FLies
Hannah, I'm not really sure why there weren't any girls on the island because I think that the all the boys on the plan were from a private school heading somewhere. At least I know that Jack and his choir were from a school but I don't know about the other boys. Also if there were more girls. Would the boys and girls split into seperate tribes? Because the boys were more savagely and the girls would probably not want it that way. Also with what is going on, since Piggy's aunt raised him, how come he didn't talk in proper English. He mostly talked in fragments.
Piggy = somewhat controlled society.
Without Piggy = death and chaos
Yeah alex, but Jack is so concerned with keeping his position that he says that Simon was the beast. This shows the measures that people will go to to stay powerful.
I agree with you, adriana.
what I was trying to say in class was that Piggy's aunt set the rules for him to have the best care. He was civilized because he remembered those rules. So because of that, if he were to vocalize those rules to everyone else, maybe more of that care and order that his aunt instilled in him would have been on the island with the boys.
how does piggy keeping them civilized and some what humane, connect to Macbeth??
Hannah, when Simon ran away. Why did he? What was his motive and where did he go?
I take offense to hannahj's comment when she said girls are two years higher on the maturity level. These days, more girls are starting smoking, they obsess over clothes, makeup, and other trivial things. LOTF is a stereotype of guys when it shows they kill on instinct. I'm not saying I'm more mature than girls, but that doesn't mean we all aren't.
Chels, I'm not sure how it connects to Macbeth. Does Piggy relate to another character in Macbeth? What character would he relate to?
endsley....he went to the field because he was so connected with nature.
I think piggy is just a naturally a big picture person and he thinks throught things mich more than everyone else on the island. Also, he is the most femine of all the boys, like when killing pigs, because he only had an aunt to raise him.
I think that Ralph really hated life in society, so he never really studied it. So when he was trying really hard to keep control, he couldn't. He had had no expirience, and had never studied his parents really. So when Piggy tried to keep order, it insulted Ralph that Piggy knew more than him.
ENDSLEY~ im not sure, i think that in a way it does connect, but im not sure with who? i think that it will because almost everything else has been similar...
Do you think that each of the characters have their own personal "masks?"
alex-yes that is true, but on the reponsibility level, studies have been done that show girls are socially develpoed 2 years ahead of guys.
no offense guys.
Alex I agree with your comment. Except with girls starting to smoke. Boys also do this and I know a lot that do. Also girls might be smoking cigerettes but boys are mainly the ones who are smoking pot and other drugs. I know girls do to but guys are the main people who do it. And no girls do not obsess over makeup and clothes. There are many girls who play sports and do other things. But yes there are some girls who spend there whole time at the mall. But not everybody!
I agree with what emily just said that having a father figure doesn't mean that a kid will grow up to be a murderer. But I also think there is a stereotype about fathers that they are not as nuturing or as supportive as mothers. I know not everyone thinks that, but it is possible for fathers to be nurturing too.
i think that the conch is so important to piggy because when he has control of that, he has control of the whole group, and for a minute people are listenting to him- which is what piggy really wants.
Ya but paige the conch shatters and then he dies like 3 sec. later. So I dont think piggy had a lot of titme to mope and be dedpressed.
to build on to sara i think that pigger held everything together but no on ever realized it. although no one showed respect to him they always followed what he said and he helped get order on the island(for a little bit) but Ralph and Jack didn't realize that they were listening to him because they both wanted to do everything their own ways.
Yes Shauna I think that they do!
Like you said Piggy's mask he is glasses and Jack's is his face paint. I think Ralph is hiding behind the conch. Because he was like "You voted me cheif and I have the conch" I don't think that Ralph would have been as assertive.
shauna-yes, I think each character has their own mask. Ralph hides behind the conch as his power and even when he goes to Jack's tribe to get meat with Piggy, he used the conch as an excuse of why Jack couldn't talk.
Jack used his "war paint" as his mask for power above the boys that chose to follow him.
Piggy's mask would probably his glasses that even though he keeps the society civilized, he has problems of his own like his asthma and the problems he has with his aunt because she sets so many rules for him.
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If Ralph wasn't leader from the start, I think he might of just been a loner because at the beginning, he really didn't depend on everyone until Piggy came along, and even when he was there, he just ignored him for a while until Ralph relized what his duties were.
Hannah I have heard of that study too.
to jess b. piggy was the on;y civilized person one the island, and the conch was the order one the island, so when it was destroyed piggy also died because they were the 2 things holding the island together.
Jess- I think that the conch crushed all of Piggy's opes, and to me, it seems the when hope is gone, that's pretty much it.
thanks hannah!:)
JESS~ i think that the significance to the conch breaking and then piggy dieing is that they were almost like puzzle pieces, they went together. i think that together they had some level of power, but without the other they have not a chance. just a guess...
Piggy was definitely the most civilized person on the island and roger was the most uncivilized and roger kills piggy, showing uncivilized always wins
Jess- I know that politics are corrupt, but there have never been any female Rabbis, Popes, Presidents, Fuhrors, or anything else to that scale. I'm no male supremacist, but saying girls are more mature than guys in the long run is not so true. Females tend to act on personal beliefs, not so much on the good of the people.
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Sarah, the Lord of the Flies is the pig head that Jack killed and hung on a stick. Simon refered to that as Lord of the Flies because all the flies were gathering around the spilled guts and the pig head. And to Simon it looked like the pig head was incharge of them.
Do both books depend on trust of all the people? Like in Macbeth, Macbeth kept betraying trust to get what he wanted, and in LOTF, Ralph had trust in Jack, and once it was betrayed, disputes between the two of them began.
does a pig's head kill people?? I don't think so...
Sara-that is true. one decision did lead to another, but if girls had been there to help it might not have turned out as bad for them, like 2 people getting killed and the boys splitting into two groups.
saram~ I think that the pig head on a stick and when Macduff is carrying Macbeth's head connect because it symbolizes defeat against something.
I think that the influence of women in macbeth (Lady Macbeth) is a good hint of how life on the island would have turned out if there were girls. I think that the girls would have been helpful because of their common sense, and responsibility; but I think they would have formed their own greed and selfishness. Just like Lady Macbeth did... and look what happened when Lady Macbeth took control!
Declan, excellent point, i was about to say the same thing. Would Macebth be so greedy if the witches had not told him the prohpicies.
sarah-- I had the same question, but in the book it refers to the pig head when it talks to Simon. possibly the flies represented the boys and the head the island and evil.
The pig head is the evil inside everyone!!!!
Sarah C was the peron I was referring to about the head and the flies.
So just feeling evil kills people? I don't think that's right either...could it be an actul person? Jack? A deformed fly?
Back to when we were discussing if Macbeth would have been different if he had started out being king, I think it could have gone either way. If he felt that he had full and supreme power, he probably would have been content with being king. If he felt that others were trying to take his power, he still would have murdered and tried to get more power.
The faceoff between the LOF and simon was like good versus bad because the LOF was obviously the most evil character/feeling and simon was obviously the most good
I agree with Paige!! Isnt this supposed to be mainly a Macbeth test?? ;)
this is more of a comment for Ms. Smith: i think it's interesting that we were given 2 books to read that had so much in common. like the one thing that i noticed that's really the same is the pig head and macbeth's head. I think they both represent the same thing or defeat, just at different levels.
When Simon was with the LOF, the pig head, they started having a conversation and the pig head was telling Simon that he was stupid. Was the beast alive or was Simon imagining it? Also what was the purpose of the dead parachute man on the mountain?
In both Macbeth and LOTF, there really werre no rules. Macbeth was ruler, and he just got caught up in everything, that there really were no rules, other than treason. treason was the main thing. In LOTF, no rules, other than the conch for some of the time. So does all of this killing connect with having no rules? Are they really challenging the system if there are no rules?
Chels and Paige that was what I was thinking! I think she should change it to a LOF quiz :D
I agree with Paige!
Christa--I think that Macbeth is so ambitious, especially with his wife, that he would have wanted more--he would start taking over more land, or going to war. No matter his position, I think that his personality will be ambitious.
Just a quick question~~~ Is Smith grading us on our comments and the live blog, or just the fishbowl??
endsley...the dead parachute on the mountain was the beast and he was imagining the LOF talking to him, but it is like the LOF is alive because he is te evil and greed inside everyone
Chels. Both! The liveblog is for people who aren't as comfortable talking.
i think the pig head just represented the boys' escalation into higher levels of evil. The pig's head represented all of the evil on the island, i think.
Sort of going back to if macbeth would have been the sae if he had the power from the beginning, well i think that he wouldn't have enough confidence and power if he started out in the throne, because at the beginning of the play Lady Macbeth was helping Macbeth and pushing him through and everytime he killed or murdered someone he gained more confidence and power each time. Maybe Duncan would have killed macbeth in the play rather thatn Macbeth killing him if Macbeth was in power so Duncan could et the power for himself
the beast was the dead soldier attached to the parachute
Yeah, the heads is the "Lord of the Flies".
i think kjerstin said that if there are no rules what is there to challenge? well, there are several things; in LOF there are sort of rules, come when the conch blows, ralph is the ruler, and all the other stuff, so Jack challenged those.
If there are no rules you can challenge the lack of rules.
I think the pigs head symbolizes power and evil
adriana i agree with you completely
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