Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 8:36 AM
Is it really a good thing to be "man"?
What do you mean?
What do you mean by that?
Elyse, I think that it is a good thing to be man if you are a man. Because, men are always trying to get to the top, and it doesn't matter if they kill an animal or another human to get there, I think so long as you stay out of the way of those people, you are fine.
What do you mean is it good to be "man"? Do you mean rather then a women?
To build off Endsley, I think they are trying to say that men are naturally evil. At first they have their conscience, but like we said, they can start to kill a lot of people. In LOF, the boys slowly became savages and lost their conscience. In Macbeth, He found it easier to kill and almost seemed to be going crazy, especially after the witches told him he was undefeatable.
Paige I agree with you.
Like Macbeth thought he was a very powerful man because he killed so many people, but he died in the end it seems like the power just brought him down.
I agree with Alee when she said that night and when we sleep, is like a way to hide from the 'evil' that happens at night..it's a very good point.
Shakespeare and Golding are saying that people are capable of incredible transformation through tough circumstances. Macbeth had to fulfill the prophecy of the witches and transformed himself from a soldier to a murderer. The boys transformed themselves from innocent and not wanting to kill a pig to actually killing eachother. They finally stopped when the naval officer appeared and snapped them back to the reality that they were commiting murderous actions.
This is sort of like Adriana's, but I think that man is very, very greedy.
I think it has its good aspects and its bad aspects. I think it really depends on your actions. Some people make bad decisions and put others in a bad postion. So, really it changes over time.
Men will instinctively think they are better. Is that good or bad?
I agree with Alee about night. I think that people go to sleep at night so that they can escape evil. For instance, the gentlewoman said to the doctor when they were discussing Lady Macbeth's condition that she would not go to bed without a light on. I think we all have a natural fear of darkness, because so often in our world bad things happen at night.
elyse, do you mean, is it good to be human? or a man rather than a woman?
I think it is good to be man because it isn't only man who is murdered in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies. In Lord of the Flies the pigs and animals are killed for evil, power, and food also.
I think they are saying that in human nature, we will eventually challenge the system. You can only control someone for so long before they break free and rebel. Just one example from the top of my head is that Malcolm came to fight Macbeth after being under his tyranic rule for some time. And Jack was under Ralphs rule for a while and he eventually broke free. I think the authors are saying that you can only control people for so long.
I agree with josh. I think they were showing the inner instincts and feelings of man when everything else is stripped away.
I think it is bad that men think they are instinctively better because than we feel like we are superior to everyone else, like we have control over them. This, as with tragic heroes, causes man to have a downfall. When will be our downfall?
But if the boys tried to wear a mask when they killed Simon, why did everyone know who did it. I really don't think that the night is covering up for the boys killing in LOTF because it's so obvious and they all know who did it.
To adriana, it is bad because there will then be conflict that will never end because everyone thinks they're better and that they deserve power.
About morals-I think maybe it is possibel for people to allow the killing instinct to take over. Eventually though, the morals will catch up to you and you will feel guilty like Lady Macbeth.Sarah was talking about how during daytime we have masks. When Lady Macbeth was feeling really guilty, her night guilt seeped over to the day and she started sleepwalking.
A counter-example of adriana:I don't believe that men are naturally evil. I believe that men are naturally good and how they are brought up and their environment depends on whether they are good or evil. John Lock was a Philosopher. He believe that men were greated good and that they could change bad because of the things around them. People are born into innocence and the world that we live in will determine how our future will be. But, what defines "good" and what defines "evil" ?
Men think that they are better, and it has always been like that and it always will be. There is nothing we can do to change that, even if we try. They are just "wired" like that? I don't think that there is always a positive or negative side to that. For example, men do things that are good, and not so good just depending on the situation.
I don't really agree with what alee said about night... we could sleep during the day, but since we need sunlight, and things like that it's better to rest at night. Also whether or not we're hiding we need sleep it's a natural proccess of life.
adriana, instinctivly, men always think that they're better and more powerful. Even today, the president has always been a man. I think that it's not a bad thing, until they get so power-hungry that it gets out of control. Like in Macbeth where he's willing to kill even his best friend to get to the throne, but it back-fires on him.
adrianag: Are you saying that just men are evil, or men and women combined are evil? If you think about it, the women in Macbeth were all very strong women who had very strong mind sets. However, there was a touch of evil in them all, for they hid behind masks so that they would appear innocent, and uphold the view that women are quiet little girls who mind themselves and do what they are told. This is an example of appearance verses reality, for the women are viewed as innocent, but are really a lot more than that. Why do you think Shakespeare portrayed women as so strong and powerful, even though they were thought to be the exact opposite?
Men are twisted, but the beauty of the human race is that we have the capability to make our own decisions, wether that is a good decision or a hurtful one.
But, if you kill enough the morals will disappear all together and you cn keep on killing without feeling guilt.
In respone to elyse-- I think that it may not be a good thing necissarily, but more of a thing of being courageous and brave instead of being weak. People want to be looked up tp and seen as a brave person. If you appear weak, then people might not want to be with you as much. It appears to be this way in Macbeth when hs manhood is challenged by Lady Macbeth. Macbeth is the husband and he is supossed to be the courageous man who protects his wife. Thus, it is jind of a n insult to say that he isn't that brave man who takes the lead and is brave.
I think that the authors are just trying to say that human nature is to be evil. When we are being looked at by others, we pretend to be caring and considerate people, but when no one's looking we show our true side. When the opportunity arises, we take what we want and forget about trying to be righteous or pure.
I agree with Sara, in that peoples moods and behahiors are different at night. I also see a connection between LOTF and Macbeth in that when a character is killed, he/she is usually a main theme of the book. There is usually a idden message in the after math of the death. The storm after Simon is killed, and also the ghost of Banquo coming back to haunt Macbeths thoughts: blood will hae blood...
Maybe Golding thought that women didn't really matter. The women in LOF were only parents. Piggy's anut spoiled him. He also talks about how his friend would blow a conch to summon his mother.
Off of what Adriana said, that probably the reasons that the boys in LOF became savages is beacuse of the lack of rules. I think at first when the boys crashed on the island they followed the rules. But once they started to realize that they didn't have any adults with them and they didn't have to follow rules, they became wild and able to do whatever they wanted. And because they could do whatever they wanted, they became savages. And once Macbeth became King, he made the rules, so he wasn't sure what to do with himself and killed everyone who was able to take over his power.
Alee, I agree with you that there was a touch of evil in everybody.
Parents guide you, so Lady Macbeth is kind of like Macbeths mom I guess at the beginning of the play. And I think in LOF there was an absence of women because women tend to be more responsible and grown up.
I agree with Brian that it is basically human nature to want to challenge the system. You can't go through life living the way other people want you to live. That's probably why in LOF Jack couldn't stay under Ralph's control because he wasnt doing what he wanted to do. Macduff was angry about Macbeth killing his family, but he also didnt like Macbeth in the first place so he probably still would have killed macbeth if his family wasnt dead. He didnt want to stay under that control.
I think that Golding thought that women were so wholesome and who could ever think of women becoming cannibals. But Shakespeare thinks that women may act like that during the day, but the night brings out the worst in them.
I completely agree with paige. Men might start off slow, but when they know they want something, they will do whatever they need to to get it. This is simply because men are greedy and 'always get what they want.'
On alex's comment.... I think simon's encounter with the Lord of the Flies is similar to christ and the devil
To adriana's comment, I think Shakespeare was trying to show women are strong, independent, and equal to man, which would've been revolutionary at his time.
well this is kind of off topic, but why weren't there any girls on the island in Lord of the Flies? was is just coincidence that the plane that crashed was full of boys?would all the fighting have happened on the island about who should be the cheif if there were girls there?
Yea Brian you are right, but Macbeth is kind of the son that grows up and makes his own decisions.
I agree w/Alex. The way blood brought more blood in LOF was that it gave the boys strength and the want to kill more. In Macbeth, he did get strength, but he also saw the need to kill people to cover his tracks.
On my comment, I didn't quite finish...Simons death represents the bare, barbaric qualities of the human race, and the storm is almost playing the role of an uncivilized person
I don't think that Golding didn't care about women, but states that a woman's charachter is more nurturing and caring. A woman is known to spoil someone more than a man just because of their nature. Piggy's parents were dead. I don't think that Piggy got both sides of parenting, he got the mother's side but not a father figure. Maybe that is why Piggy is so different from all of the other boys.
It wasn't a coincidence because if they were going to a boarding school it would have been all males.
hannahj~ i think that there weren't any girls on the island because they were going to or from boarding school, like and all boys boarding school.
hannah, I think the girls might have been treated with respectful detachment at first because of rules, but eventually, the girls would have been pushed aside.
Yea alex, but the thing is that they convince themselves that they were justified in the murder
On adriana's comment, I think it is human nature to be able to kill. If you look around us, there are so many violent games, movies, TV shows, and people. We don't realize it, but we see violence all around every day and don't really seem to care (we play games with violence).
Piggy seems to be the only one to remain sane during the boys experience on the island, until he is killed...what kind of message does this send?
This is kind of off what hannahj said, why isn't there women on the island? And if there was adults on the plane, was it coincidence that they all died?
Piggy did have the most rules, but he was one of the most sensible ones.
I think that Piggy's Aunt wasn't all that strict, and that is why he is the only one who can reason when there aren't any adults around.
Piggy's aunt was more of a sheltering character and really told Piggy how he was supposed to be and not that she didn't care. I think she might of cared too much that Piggy didn't really become his own person and he really didn't get to experience too much because he was always doing "the right thing" and he wasn't outgoing.
ooh that makes sense. and also what sara said that the whole story could have been different since girls are 2 whole years ahead of guys on the maturity level. girls tend to be more responsible and probably wouldn't have let anyone get killed.
Although Piggy's aunt spoiled Piggy a lot, or so the book implies, Piggy still manages to be pretty smart and independent. Where did Piggy learn/get this independence? He helped Ralph take on the role of leader of the boys throughout the story; I'm just curious to see what others think about where he might have become so independent, despite being babied by his aunt.
It wasn't a coincidence that there weren't any women on the island because they were going to boarding school but i dont think Golding wanted woman on the island because things would have been more orderly and women dont have to have the gratification of killing as much as men.
I think the reason there weren't any girls on the island is that the boys came for a military school, all boys academy
Can someone answer this question for me? What was the curatain that flapped over Ralph's mind at times? Who WAS the LOF?
In response to alex, that those who don't conform are outcasted and in this case killled
I think that when you're in situations like that, you have to be able to adjust.
alexm- i think that one of the reasons that piggy is killed is because the rest of the boys don't like him, because he disagrees with all of their standards. they may be scared of him, and don't know how to handle all of his comments and concerns.
Josh: Yea, it seems like all deaths can be justified by (in some cases) ignorant groups, and somtimes its too bad.
i dont really know what you guys are talking about but i just have to say that i just realized that piggy is alot like neville in harry potter. Piggy has his aunt, Neville has his grandma and they are both really really really overbearing, both their real parents are unable to take care of them... just a connection.
sarahc, good question i was wondering the same thing.
I think that there aren't any girls because they could have completely changed the story. I mean look at how much Lady Macbeth changed the story. Without her I'm almost positive that Macbeth wouldn't have killied Duncan or gone to the extremes that he did.
sarah....th Lof was the pig on the head that simon ran into and was the evil in everyone. He caused the death
I said in the discussion that Piggy's aunt kind of spoiled him and didn't seem to be very effective as a parent. I also agree with what emily said about his aunt also having a lot of rules. I agree that she is overbearing about things like Piggy's safety and his asthma, but she also spoiled him by always giving him sweets and doting on him.
sarah, I have the same question too. I found it hard to actually picture what LOF looked like. When Simon had run away and the LOF started talking to him and making him kind of nervous..I got lost in that part of the book.
This is off of Sarah C.'s question, but I think the curtain is a sort of disease, like alztimers.
Good point, Alex. After Piggy's death, Ralph finally starts to totally break down. Maybe he really held everything together. Like brian is saying, Piggy's aunt indirectly rescues everyone. I think Piggy is symbolic of the end of innocence and the killling instinct of men.
It was the pig on the stick
sarahc i don't know what the curtain was, but the LOF was the pigs head that jack and his group cut of to put on a stake. The head was left there to rot i guess and the flies were drawn to it and that is why they called it Lord of the FLies
Hannah, I'm not really sure why there weren't any girls on the island because I think that the all the boys on the plan were from a private school heading somewhere. At least I know that Jack and his choir were from a school but I don't know about the other boys. Also if there were more girls. Would the boys and girls split into seperate tribes? Because the boys were more savagely and the girls would probably not want it that way. Also with what is going on, since Piggy's aunt raised him, how come he didn't talk in proper English. He mostly talked in fragments.
Connor has brought up the head on the stick. In the end of Macbeth Macbehts head is brought back to show that Macduff murdered him, and the pigs head is stuck on the stick. What is the symbolism with these two?
Piggy = somewhat controlled society.Without Piggy = death and chaos
Yeah alex, but Jack is so concerned with keeping his position that he says that Simon was the beast. This shows the measures that people will go to to stay powerful.
I agree with you, adriana.
what I was trying to say in class was that Piggy's aunt set the rules for him to have the best care. He was civilized because he remembered those rules. So because of that, if he were to vocalize those rules to everyone else, maybe more of that care and order that his aunt instilled in him would have been on the island with the boys.
How did Piggy learn to be so independent, even though his aunt spoiled him? He helped the tribes through so much with his words and ideas, even if he wasn't credited. How is he so smart, clever, and independent?
how does piggy keeping them civilized and some what humane, connect to Macbeth??
Hannah, when Simon ran away. Why did he? What was his motive and where did he go?
I think the curtain is how the boys fall to their wild state. Ralph was just able to hold off the curtain longer. He began to forget about the fire and many important things. This might be what happened to the other boys. They didn't keep a fire or think anything through. Piggy seemed to hold off the curtain almost until his death. MAybe because he had society pounded into him his whole life.
I take offense to hannahj's comment when she said girls are two years higher on the maturity level. These days, more girls are starting smoking, they obsess over clothes, makeup, and other trivial things. LOTF is a stereotype of guys when it shows they kill on instinct. I'm not saying I'm more mature than girls, but that doesn't mean we all aren't.
Chels, I'm not sure how it connects to Macbeth. Does Piggy relate to another character in Macbeth? What character would he relate to?
endsley....he went to the field because he was so connected with nature.
I think piggy is just a naturally a big picture person and he thinks throught things mich more than everyone else on the island. Also, he is the most femine of all the boys, like when killing pigs, because he only had an aunt to raise him.
I agrree with adriana because both ralph and piggy gave in to the barbaric dance when they went over there. It just took them longer to give in.
That makes sense adriana. Thank you.
Why is the conch so important to Piggy? Why is he so protective of it?
I think that Ralph really hated life in society, so he never really studied it. So when he was trying really hard to keep control, he couldn't. He had had no expirience, and had never studied his parents really. So when Piggy tried to keep order, it insulted Ralph that Piggy knew more than him.
Exactly Brian! Piggy kind of held everything together. I think the main thing that Ralph and Jack bonded over was that they both were mean to Piggy. This held together both groups, even after they seperated into two tribes. Also, they pretty much survived because of Piggy's glasses. So, without Piggy and his glasses all the boys would have most likely died.
ENDSLEY~ im not sure, i think that in a way it does connect, but im not sure with who? i think that it will because almost everything else has been similar...
Do you think that each of the characters have their own personal "masks?"
I think the conch reminds Piggy of his aunt and her rules which gives him a state of safety, and when the conch breaks it is like everything he has learned has shattered?
alex-yes that is true, but on the reponsibility level, studies have been done that show girls are socially develpoed 2 years ahead of guys.no offense guys.
I think the conch represented order and government. Then when it broke, chaos ensued.
Alex I agree with your comment. Except with girls starting to smoke. Boys also do this and I know a lot that do. Also girls might be smoking cigerettes but boys are mainly the ones who are smoking pot and other drugs. I know girls do to but guys are the main people who do it. And no girls do not obsess over makeup and clothes. There are many girls who play sports and do other things. But yes there are some girls who spend there whole time at the mall. But not everybody!
I agree with what emily just said that having a father figure doesn't mean that a kid will grow up to be a murderer. But I also think there is a stereotype about fathers that they are not as nuturing or as supportive as mothers. I know not everyone thinks that, but it is possible for fathers to be nurturing too.
I have to admit, girls are just as immature as guys, but they are better at pretending to be more resposnible. It is appearance v. reatlity. Lady Macbeth pretends to be an innocent woman, but she is really a murderer. The lords expect her to be terrified when she hears about Duncan's death, so she faints to make them believe she's "only a woman."
I agree with wht elyse said in the discussion, the conch is the symbol of their civilized state. When the conch was broken, Jack completely lost it.
i think that the conch is so important to piggy because when he has control of that, he has control of the whole group, and for a minute people are listenting to him- which is what piggy really wants.
Ya but paige the conch shatters and then he dies like 3 sec. later. So I dont think piggy had a lot of titme to mope and be dedpressed.
to build on to sara i think that pigger held everything together but no on ever realized it. although no one showed respect to him they always followed what he said and he helped get order on the island(for a little bit) but Ralph and Jack didn't realize that they were listening to him because they both wanted to do everything their own ways.
I agree with hannah. Girls just mature much faster then boys. So, right now us girls are probably more mature but soon you guys will also mature and become more civilized.
When the boulder crashed into Piggy and the conch, the conch was shattered first before he was hit. After everyone's comments to my question, I think that the breaking of the conch represented the breaking of Piggy and his life. He had invested so much in the conch and when it was shattered, it was almost like his life was shattered too.
I think that just having a father or just a mother does not always determine your personality. We are individual people, we have a say in how we are. However, the type of parent you have does affect hhow you will grow up.
Is there any significance about the conch breaking and then Piggy dying??
I don't really think that girls are more mature than guys, I just think that girls are more serious and guys are more kind of go with the flow. No offense chicas!
Hannah, I've heard of that study aswell. It shouldn't be offensive because it's not your opinion, it's fact. But, how does this go back into the story? Is it just that since the boys weren't responsible they turned into savages? Maybe, but it was a 50/50 chance. One decision leads to another. If they make one bad desicion, it's all down hill from there.
About the conch, I think it was a last attempt to cling to civilization. Even though they thought "no grown-ups" would be a fun game, but the first thing they did was make rules and that was a game to them too. Even after Jack rebels against the rule of the conch, he still wanted civilization. The dance made them feel like part of an organized society. They didn't really want anarchy.
Yes Shauna I think that they do!Like you said Piggy's mask he is glasses and Jack's is his face paint. I think Ralph is hiding behind the conch. Because he was like "You voted me cheif and I have the conch" I don't think that Ralph would have been as assertive.
Sarah is right. I think your parents just influence your opinions
shauna-yes, I think each character has their own mask. Ralph hides behind the conch as his power and even when he goes to Jack's tribe to get meat with Piggy, he used the conch as an excuse of why Jack couldn't talk.Jack used his "war paint" as his mask for power above the boys that chose to follow him.Piggy's mask would probably his glasses that even though he keeps the society civilized, he has problems of his own like his asthma and the problems he has with his aunt because she sets so many rules for him.
Ya Jess. I think that there is a significance behind the conch breaking and then Piggy dying. Read my last comment; I discussed it in there.
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If Ralph wasn't leader from the start, I think he might of just been a loner because at the beginning, he really didn't depend on everyone until Piggy came along, and even when he was there, he just ignored him for a while until Ralph relized what his duties were.
Hannah I have heard of that study too.
to jess b. piggy was the on;y civilized person one the island, and the conch was the order one the island, so when it was destroyed piggy also died because they were the 2 things holding the island together.
Ok, I know I am repeating myself, but does ANYONE know who is the Lord of the Flies? What was the symbolism of all those flies that Simon saw on the pig head?
Jess- I think that the conch crushed all of Piggy's opes, and to me, it seems the when hope is gone, that's pretty much it.
JESS~ i think that the significance to the conch breaking and then piggy dieing is that they were almost like puzzle pieces, they went together. i think that together they had some level of power, but without the other they have not a chance. just a guess...
Piggy was definitely the most civilized person on the island and roger was the most uncivilized and roger kills piggy, showing uncivilized always wins
To answer to Paige:I think that girls aren't more serious they are extremely dramatcic and have their own opinion. I know guys who are really sensitive and are extremely dramatic too. They just don't show it as much as girls do.
Jess- I know that politics are corrupt, but there have never been any female Rabbis, Popes, Presidents, Fuhrors, or anything else to that scale. I'm no male supremacist, but saying girls are more mature than guys in the long run is not so true. Females tend to act on personal beliefs, not so much on the good of the people.
i dont think that piggy was the only civilized person on the island. Wasnt Ralph pretty close to being civilized to? he wanted to keep the fire going.
Sarahc: I'm not really sure of what the LOF is, or who it is. To tell you the truth, I think the LOF can be whatever you make it out to be; Golding kind of left it hanging for the reader to decide for themselves. I know this isn't a specific answer, but I hope it helps!
I don't think that uncivilized always wins. I think that it depends on the time frame and the drive each person has to do what they need to do to win.
Sarah, the Lord of the Flies is the pig head that Jack killed and hung on a stick. Simon refered to that as Lord of the Flies because all the flies were gathering around the spilled guts and the pig head. And to Simon it looked like the pig head was incharge of them.
I like that idea Endsley. Piggy was almost proud of the glasses because they made him unique. They were like a sheild. As long as he had them, he had an excuse to stand apart from the others. He thought no one would ever accept him, so he never tried. Losing the glasses pushed him over the edge. Once they were stolen, he started being much more assertive.
Do both books depend on trust of all the people? Like in Macbeth, Macbeth kept betraying trust to get what he wanted, and in LOTF, Ralph had trust in Jack, and once it was betrayed, disputes between the two of them began.
Sarah, the lord of the flies is the pig head on the stick. I really don't understand the significance of this. It seems like the only thing that it did was talk to Simon. How does the lord of the flies relate back to the rest of the book????
True true, I also agree with Jess.
does a pig's head kill people?? I don't think so...
Sara-that is true. one decision did lead to another, but if girls had been there to help it might not have turned out as bad for them, like 2 people getting killed and the boys splitting into two groups.
Maybe it symbolizes things like greed and fear that everyone has.
anna-i don't think it does. i don't understand the significance of the pig head.
I don't think that girls are more mature than guys in the long run. And your right about any woman leaders, except queens. But right now, our highschool years or like up till junior year girls are going to be more mature just because we grow up faster.
I don't think that Ralph wanted absolute power. I think he just wanted people to listen to him. Ralph was a GOOD leader, he just wasn't very agressive. He wanted people to do what was best for them all, and the kids wanted to challenge that. That is why he tried to hold on to power, no one listened to him, and if he just wanted everyone to do what would be best.
I agree with paige when she said that man is greedy... the stories wouldn't turn out the same it the people in them weren't so greedy about power, they woould definetly not have killed, and broken others trust with out lust for power.
saram~ I think that the pig head on a stick and when Macduff is carrying Macbeth's head connect because it symbolizes defeat against something.
I think that the influence of women in macbeth (Lady Macbeth) is a good hint of how life on the island would have turned out if there were girls. I think that the girls would have been helpful because of their common sense, and responsibility; but I think they would have formed their own greed and selfishness. Just like Lady Macbeth did... and look what happened when Lady Macbeth took control!
Declan, excellent point, i was about to say the same thing. Would Macebth be so greedy if the witches had not told him the prohpicies.
sarah-- I had the same question, but in the book it refers to the pig head when it talks to Simon. possibly the flies represented the boys and the head the island and evil.
Annaw: I think that the pig head is a symbolism of the boys guilt and drives them to want to kill. I think it indirectly makes them do things, kind of like Macbeth's want to become king which indirectly makes him kill people.
Alee i agree with you about LOF. I think that LOF is probably whoever you are scared of, the one thing thats keeping you from conquering the system. If the boys were safe on the island, i dont think they would have fought as much.
The pig head is the evil inside everyone!!!!
I think both Lady Macbeth and Macbeth were uncofident and unwilling to kill but Macbeth was motivated by Lady Macbeth after she had callled on the evil spirits to help her. Both of them were afraid of it and needed somebody or something motivate them.
Sarah C was the peron I was referring to about the head and the flies.
I'm bored of LOF I think we should move on to Macbeth~!
I think it talked to him because he is skitzophrenic. (sorry, can't spell that)Things like that seemed to have happened before.
So just feeling evil kills people? I don't think that's right either...could it be an actul person? Jack? A deformed fly?
Connor--> can't the pig head represent more than one thing? ANd waht do you mean by evin inside everyone??
I think that when Mrs. Smith said that when there are no rules there are no consequences for your actions, I think that there are consequences, just different ones. If there were rules, there would be punishment to go with the consequnces of your actions. However, with no rules, there would only be consequences of actions directly, not of rules.
I agree with you Paige! I thought that this was a Macbeth test! Oh well!
Back to when we were discussing if Macbeth would have been different if he had started out being king, I think it could have gone either way. If he felt that he had full and supreme power, he probably would have been content with being king. If he felt that others were trying to take his power, he still would have murdered and tried to get more power.
The faceoff between the LOF and simon was like good versus bad because the LOF was obviously the most evil character/feeling and simon was obviously the most good
I agree with Paige!! Isnt this supposed to be mainly a Macbeth test?? ;)
this is more of a comment for Ms. Smith: i think it's interesting that we were given 2 books to read that had so much in common. like the one thing that i noticed that's really the same is the pig head and macbeth's head. I think they both represent the same thing or defeat, just at different levels.
When Simon was with the LOF, the pig head, they started having a conversation and the pig head was telling Simon that he was stupid. Was the beast alive or was Simon imagining it? Also what was the purpose of the dead parachute man on the mountain?
brian----i agree. i don't think macbeth would have been so greedy if the witches hadn't gotten involved. But, this goes back to how they absolutley LOVE creating chaos.
In both Macbeth and LOTF, there really werre no rules. Macbeth was ruler, and he just got caught up in everything, that there really were no rules, other than treason. treason was the main thing. In LOTF, no rules, other than the conch for some of the time. So does all of this killing connect with having no rules? Are they really challenging the system if there are no rules?
Chels and Paige that was what I was thinking! I think she should change it to a LOF quiz :D
I agree with Paige!
endsley, i had the same question. what is the significance of the parachute man and the pig head. how does either really play a part in the story?
sarah c, you're right. There are consequences, but they might be good ones. The boys kill, but it gives them confidence and tells that killing is a good thing. Macbeth learned that the more he killed, the easier it would be to kill. As he rose in position, no one could challenge him.
Christa--I think that Macbeth is so ambitious, especially with his wife, that he would have wanted more--he would start taking over more land, or going to war. No matter his position, I think that his personality will be ambitious.
Just a quick question~~~ Is Smith grading us on our comments and the live blog, or just the fishbowl??
Well.... then ask us a question about Macbeth??
endsley...the dead parachute on the mountain was the beast and he was imagining the LOF talking to him, but it is like the LOF is alive because he is te evil and greed inside everyone
haha! chels and paige! endsley and i were just saying that! ya, i have way more to say about macbeth!
Kjerstin, good point. If there are no rules, what is there to challenge? I guess that just leaves other people who are threatening you or somehow in your way
Good question Chelsea! I hope she is grading on both!!!
Chels. Both! The liveblog is for people who aren't as comfortable talking.
The dead man and the pig's head are the "beast." Just like the 'Lord' said, the beast is just in everyone's head. It is an embodiment of their fears.
i think the pig head just represented the boys' escalation into higher levels of evil. The pig's head represented all of the evil on the island, i think.
she's grading us on the things we say, like the fishbowl. the liveblog is optional so i don't think she's grading us on it. She might read it but i don't think she's grading it.
If the LOF was the pig's head, what is the symbolism?
Sort of going back to if macbeth would have been the sae if he had the power from the beginning, well i think that he wouldn't have enough confidence and power if he started out in the throne, because at the beginning of the play Lady Macbeth was helping Macbeth and pushing him through and everytime he killed or murdered someone he gained more confidence and power each time. Maybe Duncan would have killed macbeth in the play rather thatn Macbeth killing him if Macbeth was in power so Duncan could et the power for himself
the beast was the dead soldier attached to the parachute
I think that the reason why the people in LOF weren't as affected by the deaths of people was because they were already used to death.
Yeah, the heads is the "Lord of the Flies".
About death being commonplace--MAcbeth becomes used to killing.
i think kjerstin said that if there are no rules what is there to challenge? well, there are several things; in LOF there are sort of rules, come when the conch blows, ralph is the ruler, and all the other stuff, so Jack challenged those. If there are no rules you can challenge the lack of rules.
I think the pigs head symbolizes power and evil
adriana i agree with you completely
Maybe the LOF is the evil, and the flies are the boys. The evil lords over them, controls them, eventually.
The beast is whoever we make it out to be! It could be anything!
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