Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 8:06 PM
First fishbowl! Good luck guys. Remember to listen to everyone's comments and post thoughtful responses. Don't rush.
just checking to see if this is working
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thanks Adriana! We appreciate your wishes!
Let's get this party started!
I was confused on the meaning of his diary entry. His lack of punctuation and capitalization confused me and I didn't understand what he was trying to say.
Let's dicuss the sloganWar is PeaceFreedom of SlavweryIgnorance is Strength
Doublethink is really a very frightening idea but do we kind of practice it too?
He isn't very good at writing, because they dictate everything, so he can't use punctuation.His diary entry is the symbol that he is against the Big Brother.
The slogans demonstrate the fact that Big Brother has complete dominance over the people. If the people keep seeing these slogans, they will begin to believe it after time. The slogans are oxymorons, and are flipped inside out. For instance, war is most definitely not peace. These reversals show that the Party has in essence flipped peoples' lives around.
kari-I think that he didn't know how to write well because when Winston wrote something out, he dictated it to a machine. Therefore, he didn't have the best writting skills.
Kari,The lack of proper grammar I think contributes to the fact they don't get a great education.
Doublethink, i think, is our equivalent of lying.
kari=he was talking about the movies that he went to the night before, and how violent they were, his lack of punctuation is due to the fact that the only thing he ever has to write down are quick notes, so that is why his writing looks the way it does
The paradoxes relate to the society because the party wants to force this upon the society so they will cooperate with them. They also say that without war there would be no peace.
The slogan contributes to the society because the government has such utter control over the world that they can twist the meaning of words to suit whatever their whims annd fancies may be. For example, Winston muses about how four years ago Oceania was at war with Eastasia instead of Eurasia, but the government brainwashed everyone to think that Eurasia was always the enemy--by saying the same thing repeatedly, they turned it into truth as far as society is concerned.
Well, I think that the government controls the people so much that the slogans are all that they know, like Madison said. I also think, in response to what McKenna said, that to us, the slogans are odd to us, but not to the people, because that is all they know.
What exactly is doublethink? Was that the idea that you can believe two completely different things such as Winston believing both in INGSOC and questioning his life and the leadership?
My take on the diary is that he was so desperate, for reasons unknown, to write something in his diary that he started to write down random sentences so rapidly that he eventually forgot to use capitalization and punctuation in his frenzy.
The last line makes the most sense to me. Ignorance is Strength. When you are ignorant, the party is stronger.
I would say that the slogans are evidence of how the people use doublethink to make everything seem peachy. The government makes it their slogan so that no one thinks about what their situation really is because the slogan just confuses them.
What did INGsOC stand for?
English Sociable, I think
kari--doublethink is like second thoughts i think, its something that you look at from two different ways
Lane- I think we do practice it, because we are very similar to these people, but I guess it's not just as obvious. So I believe that we can relate a lot to this book even though it isn't as obvious as they are.
I believe that the diary represents how even their thoughts are directed by Big Brother's government. When Winston sits down to write, he emmidetely forgets what he was going to write originally. However when he starts remembering, his subconsious comes through against Big Brother.
Kari--My understanding of doublethink was that you hold one fact or belief in your mind, but you tell a lie about it so often that you come to accept both as the truth.
Nevermind its English Socialism
It makes it seem like everything is backwards in 1984, where being at war is good and peace is bad, slavery is right and freedom is wrong, and ignorance makes you strong.
Sarah,I would consider doublethink to be deeper than just lying. It is the most complete form of self-control and fear to be able to--to have to forget and rememer things because the government says they should.
Kari: I think that this is reflective of how much the Party brainwashes their minds, so that they only believe what the Party tells them. They also probably have no need to use punctuation or grammar in their lives, because they are spoon fed things through the technology and the Party.
I think the purpose of the slogan is to convince people that they have something that they don't really have. They don't have freedom, but, according to their slogan, freedom is the same thing as slavery, so in the superficial minds of the citizens they do.
kari--Doublethink is like thinking one thing, but making up a truth that is really a lie to hide it.emily--ingsoc stands for english socialism
Why do you think that the slogan is contradictory of itself?
Kari--Or maybe they know they don't have freedom, but see freedom as bad because they think it will lead to slavery?
To my comment above, I meant Kari's question about the diary entry.
I agree with Ty that this whole society is backwards. The citizens are weak in exchange for the strength of the Party.
I believe we are overfocusing on the lack of grammar and punctuation than what he wrote. Ho! an example of our society being distracted by the trivial from the true meaning of what we read.
I think that the slogan was meant to portray humanity. I also think that connections can be made between history and the slogan. The slogan contradicts itself, but I think it also exposes humam nature and the root of peace, freedom, and ignorance.
As I said before, I think that the purpose of the contradiction in the slogan is to change peoples' minds. At first, the people probably knew that freedom and slavery were too very opposite concepts. But after seeing over and over again that war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength, then the people will eventually begin to accept it as a fact. It's like the other lies that the party has told, such as the fact that they invented airplanes. The people have begun to accept it, and the truth is only known in the minds of the people.
I think my first question was misinterperted. I was really asking (although I didn't say this) about what all the sudden made him snap and start ranting about the incident with the mother and the child.
Does anyone think that the thought police can really read peoples minds?
A little while ago the circle talked about Winston's glance at O'Brien, and how he thought they were on the same side. This connects to The Chosen and our discussions about eyes being a window to the soul.
Hannah- So does the slogan represent our society? If it does I don't understand because freedom is not slavery, or is that the state of mind you are in?
I think, maybe, that the slogan represented yin-yang. One does not know peace without war, the slogan is like a represenative of the opposing forces in the world combining into one Party.
hannah-I agree, I think that it does expose what humans really are, and the few who have rebelled are the ones who have realized that they don't have to be that way, that they can change who they are.
I think that, like Maria said earlier, the slogans say that without the first idea, you cannot have the second one. With out Freedom, you would have slavery. If the people have ignorance, then the Party has strength. I don't quite understand the "war is peace" slogan, though. Please enlighten me, please!
I think that the slogan means that war brings peace in the long-run, but at the immediat moment, it keeps peace at home by keeping war away. I think that it means that if you have freedom, you are in slavery in that you have to choose all the time what you will do, so you lose time. They say that ignorance is strength, so when people are ignorant, they are not hindered by the knowledge and having to worry about everything.
Can we really provide the meaning of a word like "freedom" without its opposite? For example, if everyone was enslaved for all of time and the concept of freedom had never existed, the only "definition" we have for slavery is freedom.I hope that's moderately coherent.
laura-I think that by fighting back through war, maybe they believe they are preventing other countries from hurting their country, they use it to say that by defending themselves, they have peace.
Ty- I don't think that they can really read your mind, but they have been told that, the result is they believe it and move on and don't think that much of it.
The contradictory nature of the slogan displays how the society of 1984 is a complete contradiction of human nature. This also, in turn, deomonstrates the ultimate power of BB.
Laura,War is peace to me means that to them being is war is peaceful, normal.
ooooh good one Tom! Or they have had another meaning for freedom, but they have been brainwashed to not remember it.
Tom- I think that is what they are trying to get at. I think it leads to the idea that the people really have no memories to speak of.
Kari: I believe that the stuff about his mother and sister was in his dreams. Everything about it is describing his dreams. My question about the dream is this: Winston seems sure about the fact that his family died so he could live an other things he is sure of. If he is right about everything he is sure is ture, like his eye contact with O'Brien, than is Winston psychic or something? And also, I seemed to notice that many of the things he decides are definitely factual seem to happen in his dreams. Why is this?
Laura- Or maybe thinking of the end result being peace and war is the result to peace.
I think that the slogans also show how much the Party strives to control the people. The slogans are a way for the Party to justify their actions. If Big Brother is supposed to be looked on as a comrade, then why is he to be feared. Why does he control the people?
Laura,Their societ thrives on war. If the country was not at war the rations would not be in effect and BB would be unable to control his people.
Adding on to my last comment, they don't remember what real freedom is so they don't know that there even is a difference because no one can remember when things were different.
What do you think happens to people who might be old enough (50+) to remember when life was different?
Laurab-As I said before I THINK that the "War is Peace" is as tomr said about the "Freedom is Slavery" quote. One cannot know peace without knowing war and conflict
The war is used as an instrument of control. The rulers use it to give the citizens a reason to sacrafice for their country.
Did anyone else kind of see all of the actions of the society as the same ones from the Japanese in WW2? They think that death is funny and Goldstein is their enemy, even though you don't know him and he was really trying to help you, just like the Americans.
Emily- I don't understand- how is war peaceful, war is tragic and terrible how is war peaceful.
Why aren't there any laws? (Page 6)
Dan-I think Winston is ot phsychic, but he is more in tune with his gut feelings, so he just feels what others cant.I think also that the only time he can think really clearly is in his dreams, so that is when he remembers the truths.
Laura,Because...Freedom is Slavery. By being their slave master is their liberator so they love him and fear him at the same time.
Tom: I think that people who actually CAN remember when things are different are not listened to because their knowledge in unimaginable. The brainwashed citizens have been controlled for their whole lives and taught lies about the past, so when they are confronted with the truth, it seem ludicrous. So the oldies are probably just ignored.
Laura,To me Big Brother is like the head of any communism goverenment. They are supposed to on the same level as their comrades, but yet they fear him.
tomr-so far the book doesn't even mention older people. Maybe they all died. (Posotive thought, I know)
Zach-That was confusing. I think that there ARE laws, but they tell the people that there aren't. They just watch you all the time so that you eventually realize what they want and do it under their ever watchful eyes.
Shelby, to us war isn't peaceful, but to this brainwashed society, war is normal and without it, things wouldn't really feel peaceful to them.
About Goldstein: I noticed that the Two Minute Hate is very like our society today, but not as extreme. To me, the Hate reminded me of how many people have to feed off the bad feelings of others to feel good about themselves. By being mean, or hating others, the person feels like they can build themselves up. By looking at others and finding their faults, they make themselves look good. The Party might have the people participate in the Hate to show how just, good, and right the Party is. This happens a lot with politics, too.
Zach: I believe that there are no laws because the Party just uses the death sentence on most crimes. As Winston said, if the party knew he was writing in his diary they would execute him. Why have laws when the people know they will be killed for doing anything "bad"?
If big Brother isn't real...WHO is in charge?????
Dan--We've already seen from Winston's surrpetitious actions with the diary that the government takes opposing thoughts very seriously.
Mphair: is the Party the big kahuna?
I agree with Michelle. 1984 implies that all the elderly people were killed. I think this was because they had no many memories. There was no way to brainwash them, so they killed them.
Big Brother kind of shows the irony in "everyone is an equal" types of governments. Yes, everyone is an equal, but who says? If one person has the power, that breaks the equality rule. Maybe not, I don't know. Just a thought.
The inner circle is talking about there language and how it is all controlled. Is that really possible?
I agree with you Dan, I think the people in 1984's society just have this understanding that if the do something "bad" then they will be killed, so they don't need to waste time with laws.
Danh: Maybe. But someone should be mainly in charge of the single party...
Michelle, It doesn't matter if BB is real or not. The only way it matters is if the people are allowed to know he isn't real, then the party is in trouble. To take the godlike figure out of this society would be as good as killing some of the people in it. As long as everyone thinks he exists, and using doublethink all doubt would be choked off, the party maintains power.
Emily L.--So what do you think happened when the society came to power, when there were surely a lot more people with such knowledge?
Michelle,I think that there is someone behind Big Brother. It may be a group of people, however. Yet if there was no one, then how did Big Brother come into exsistance?
1984 refers to those killings Emily mentioned as the great purges (I accidently wrote poses in the other comment)
So if the government is all about "everyone is equal" then it is basically an extreme version of communism. Stalin=communist and mass murder. Will there be a mass murder of the people?
To answer Shelby's question: This book came out only a few years after WWII, where the world saw how cruel humans can be. I think Orwell was expressing his views on how insane humanity can be. Also, Maria said earlier that sometimes to get peace we use war, which seems strange, but sometimes our motives for war are to insure peace, and the "safety of democracy". Also, you are right slavery is not freedom. Finally, I think people who are strong are sometimes ignorant, and use ingnorance to obtain strength. That is even a little confusing to me, but I feel like there is a message Orwell tried to convey through the slogan.
Tom, yes I think there were a lot more people with knowledge at the beginning.
Daniel we talked about how it is really only communism if the government fades away, which I doubt will happen. Remember, Marx would not approve.
emily and michelle,There is a book called nightfall, and in it, there is a fictional leader who was created by another leader to be seen by the public.
This is the first chance I have had to look at this blog about our fishbowl today:I think that Winston is stuggling with how he feels towards Big Brother, as well as the government controlling their society. When he finds this diary, I think he finds a sort of release in being able to put his feelings down onto paper. At this point in the story, I dont think he really knows what he wants to write. He mentions writing to the future, but I dont think he really knows what he wants to inform them about yet. I think this is an issue he will struggle with throughout the novel.In response to whether or not their may be mass murderings later in the story: I feel that this could be a definite possibility. Who knows: maybe the government or Thought Police has already been killing people who rebel against them because we already know that the government and Thought Police are able to clear away memories.
Well, I didn't have a chance to post during the fishbowl today, so I thought I'd post now!I think we had a very good discussion today about what we have read so far.Personally I see these first few chapters as important mostly in their role as an introduction. We are introduced to Winston in these first few chapters. Winston seems to be confused and somewhat indecisive in his actions, but the reader is able to see that he may have potential in rebellion at a later point. We are also introduced to the ideas and ways of the setting. The reader sees that Big Brother is nearly worshipped as a god and a father-figure in Winston's world, but he also represents a certain repressive, domineering aspect of the new government. We are introduced also to the ideas of mob psycology, constant surveillance and mindless following.In general, these first few chapters set the tone for the rest of the book.P.S.- We TOTALLY blew Period 2 out of the water for number of posts during the fishbowl!! We had double the amount of posts of what they had posted!
Post a Comment