Fishbowl per.2 1984 275-297
posted by annes @ 7:09 AM
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Previous Posts
- Period 2's Scribe...What more can I say?
- A Day Without Period 5 Scribe is Like a Day Withou...
- Scribalicious for per 5-alicious
- Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace, Ignorance is Str...
- Discussion Continues
- Boring Scribe for a boring day-April 18th
- Fishbowl per.5 1984 225-274
- Fishbowl per.2 1984 225-274
- The Period 5 Discussion Continues Over Pages 167-224
- Period 5's 225-274 Adventure: The Conclusion
110 Comments:
1st
second!
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ok guys time to buckle down! And DISCUSS!!!! muhahahaha!
OK i think to start I was wondering about the question that they asked... about the quote of the selling eachother. haha.
What do you guys all think?
Okay, do you really think that Winston truly loves Big Brother?
I think that that represents Winston and Julia betraying one another while trying to be "fixed" for the government.
i thought that it is cuz they have a love like a spreading chestnut tree but then they later sold each other for themselves. for something better
Ok I think that it is talking about how Winston and Julia "sold each other out" even though the said they weren't going to.
Chelsea-I think that it was just talking about how they both betrayed each other in order to escape punishment..like Winston with the rats and Julia with whatever she's afraid of. So they quote is saying they sold each other out in order to save themselves.
Yes, he does. Hes too insane to think otherwise
He truly loves Big Brother. He is one of the drones now that has no feelings.
i think he does paige because he won this inside of himself battle and finally surrendered. so i think he does.
You are talking about the one at the Chesnuttree Cafe right? Well, I had predicted that this wouold happen earlier in a fishbowl. I sell you (Winston sells Julia), and you sold me (Julia sells Winston).
well i thought this quote was about winson and julia when they first met and had feelings for each other. i thought it was ironic because the tree was growing larer and spreading and so was the relationship between julia and winston even though this wasn't allowed in the society they live in.
~~Paige~~
Winston does at the end of the book love Big Brother. I don't really understand why, but he really does. I think that it might be because he realizes that Big Brother is always going to be around, and that it is hopeless to believe he will fail.
I don't think Winston loves BB just because he has had these feelings for a long time and it's hard to change everything you believe in instantly like it's no big deal.
i think that winston DOES truly love the BB because they broke him down to nothing, and took away everything that he had, and then began to rebuild him the way they wanted him to, with certain thoughts and stuff. i think he really does love BB cuz he is afraid to not, and he knows nothing else.
I agree with Connor. I think that Winston truly loves Big Brother now and he has just pretty much become one of the proles that believe anything they're told.
Winston was finally brainwashed into loving BB and believing the Party, O'Brien had said earlier that Winston was the only remnant of humanity, so is 1984 now completely inhumane?
I think the "selling" part of the quote is how Julia and Winston betrayed eachother. But the part about the spreading tree, maybe that is how the Party is spreading their power.
I think that Winston truly does love Big Brother. By stopping his love for Julia, he channeled his love into Big Brother. Your worst fears can make you do anything to keep them at bay. For Winston, if that meant betraying Julia and choosing the Party and BB, then he was willing to do it. Not only this, but he meant it, he meant his words and he couldn't go back on them
I have a question: DO we know why Winston is afraid of rats?
I think that it was because the men sold eachother out to gain self being.
For Paige's question, I think that Winston really does love BB. But, I think that this defeats the purpose of a challenging the system book. Winston didnt go as far as I thought he would for challenging the system. He betrayed Julia, and ended up loving BB. I think that he failed challenging the system.
I have a queston for the outer cirlce, Why wasn’t Winston shot while he was at the Ministry of Love?
I think that Winston does truly love Big Brother. I think that ever since his horrifying experience in Room 101, Winston was "cured" and loved Big Brother. I don't know if he has become a mindless drone like the rest of society, but he is at least learning to become one. I think he loves Big Brother because he is "cured".
~~saram~~
Winston does love BB, because it wasn't a right away thing. He was worn down for months and months at the ministry of love.
That's a good point Chelsea. I guess that makes sense, that they tore him downa nd rebuilt him exactly the way they wanted him to be.
sarah-
he could be afraid of rats just because thats one of his fears. like sometimes people are just pretty much born with fears, and they always have them.
or...
he could have had something happen to him in his early childhood or something. and maybe he has been scarred ever since, and they have been his biggest fear ever since?
Paige-
I think that maybe Winston loves Big Brother because he is so glad that the torture is over, and he is so glad that he is not one of the people being tortured. Maybe it's finally acceptance of the love. The thing that I wonder is that he said that he would rather die hating them and be happy, I want to know HOW this changed so sudden. All because of the rats?
I think that winston truly loves BB because this was the objection and goal of O'Brien and the party to get everybody love BB. Once O'Brien was done with winston, there was nothing else bad that WInson had against BB so he had no reason to hate him anymore.
Sarah,
I dont think that we know exactly why, except for the fact that they appeared in his nightmares, and he is absolutely terrified of them.
Jess-I do think that 1984 must now be inhumane. O'Brien makes it pretty clear that he doesn't really like Winston and doesn't think his life is really worth keeping. By saying he's only a remnant of humanity it means he is probably only a spec of dust in his eyes and that he doens't really matter.
Hannah
Why do you think that Winston has become a prole? The members of the inner party believe everything they are told and Winston was promoted to a better job?
I think that rats is just a horrible fear he has. Maybe something happened in his past, but we dont find out in the book.
Jess b-
I think that the society is completely inhumane, because Winston and his generation, who actually remember the past and a time when there was no Party, are becoming fewer and the Party is rooting them out of existence. If anyone else tries to rebel, they will just be brought down and converted to the Party's beliefs just like Winston was.
Alex, he wasn't shot because they want to convert the people before they are shot. He is a case that has to be cured. Like Winston said, to die hating the Party is freedom, and the Party does not want that. Therefore, they had to convert him first, and then they let him go because he was cured. Eventually, he will be killed though.
There is still humanity in 1984! Don't forget the presence of the proles! Alhough they are not very smart, they still have humanity inside them!
There is still humanity in 1984! Don't forget the presence of the proles! Alhough they are not very smart, they still have humanity inside them!
List three symbols that were used throughout 1984 and explain their importance.
Please give me alot of detail.
Kimmy-
I see that now. I guess I just saw it a little differently at first but it makes more sense then what I had thought. Winston has been worn down and down until he was a completely broken man and now they are rebuilding him into their ideal person.
sarahc-
no they never told us why he is afraid of rats. but i think it could be a childhood experience that he cant place but ever since he was been scared of rats. cuz i know that when saram was little she was cornered by a goose and it pecked at her and to this day she is still afraid of geese. and chelseah is too because when she wa little she was bitten by a goose and it started bleeding and she is still afraid. its something that stays with you.
Sarah-
We knew that Winston had been having dreams where rats were hiding behind walls and coming to get him. I think that is one of the main reasons that he is afraid of him, from nightmares in his sleep. Otherwise, we do not know why he has these dreams or anything.
I dont think Winston was shot in the Ministry of Love because the Party truly wanted to change him. Obrien I think said when Winston first came to the ministry that the Party likes to cure their prisoners and criminals before they kill them. This is to ensure that no one dies with honor or pride in what they have done against the Party. Obrien also felt that Winston was rather unique. They didnt shoot him because they would rather "cure" him.
Chelseah, I agree with you. They destroyed all of his emotions and left him empty then manipulated him to fill him with the right emotions.
I agree with Sarah, they wanted to make sure that he loved big brother so they took everyone away from him so that he has nothing else to live on.
Kimmy that is true, but they don't have a big role in society at all, and those in favor of the Party look down on them. So yes there is humanity, but no one really cares.
kind of like endsley said, like if you had a bad experience at a certain restaurant, or with somekind of food, or at some place, you may still be afraid to go back, or try that food again.
i bet that something happened with winston a long time ago, and now he is afraid of rats ever since.
Good point Kim, but will they fight for humanity? What will happen if the Party decides to take over the Proles, too? I think that the Proles wouldn't really care because they don't seem smart enough to change the things that matter.
Paige I guess you're right. I had forgotten that he was promoted to a better job. My bad.
Does anyone have any questons on questons 1-8?
I think the rats had symbolism throughout the book. i think these symoblise all the fear that all the people of this society have towards life and BB.
Yea sara I have a question kind of going off yours. Why was their a black wall and the rats were behind it? What does that wall symbolize and how did Winston "know" what was behind it.
What is Winston talking about when he says "White always mates"?
What is changed about Julia?
I thought is was werid that Winston was afraid of rts because it is generally portrayed on television and in movies that women are deathly afraid of rats.
Adriana, I agree with you when you said that they drained him of all emotions. But do you think that after Winston "heals" a bit. He will still try to overthrow the Party? Is that why after just a little while of being outside the Ministry, they shoot the people like Jones, Aaronson, and Rutherford?
Brian
I think that Winston definately knew that there were rats behind the wall but he just couldnt face them.
Tana-
I agree, and I think that Winston's encounter with the rats say something about human nature. I think that Orwell was saying that as human beings we say that we will stay true to the people and things that we love, but when it comes down to us facing what we fear most and being able to put someone else between us and that fear, we choose to put the pain on someone else. Not everyone is like that, but I think the majority of people are.
brian-
i guess black just always symbolizes something morbid, and something that you are not looking forward too. just like grim and something bad is gonna come...
The proles may eventually decide to rebel. If not, they are still present, and the Party really can't controll them, because there are way too many proles compared to party members. So humanity will still survive in the society of the proles. I do agree that humanity has almost vanished from those who are part of the party.
4.On page 281, what was Winston's idea of freedom?
a. “To die hating them was freedom.”
b. “To live hating them was freedom.”
c. “To die loving them was freedom.”
I think Winston knew what was behind it because that has been his greatest fear his whole life, and everyone knows their greatest fear even if they denie it.
I think that the wall doesn't really symbolize anything. I think it was just a dream. The wall was between him and the reality of his greatest fear. It separated him from dealing with his fear. Then, in Room 101, he was finally faced with it and the walls were down leaving the rats. Dealing with how Winston "knew" what was behind the door: I think he knew subconciously, deep down, that rats were behind the door. Other than this, I'm not really sure. This reminds me of when O'Brien says Winston always knew who he was and where they would meet, etc.
Does anyone else think thats the most depressing book ever? I mean that was a killer.
This is a little off topic, but regarding the fact that Winston thinks that White always wins in chess, and how on the map showing the war, Oceania was a white arrow and Eurasia was a black arrow. Do you think that Winston is still thinking too deeply and he subconsciously thinks that this is still wrong?
Christa
that is a really good point that we as humans put the pain on someone else. this could also connect back to our semester project and what the media and books say about us as humans.
Alex D
I think that the white symbolizes good and the black symbolizes evil. I think that Winston realizes that the good will always overthrow the bad no matter what.
For Julia, she is thicker and more stiff and Winston cannot recognize her. She has lost all of her past spirit. Something has drained her.
Kim-
I think that if the Proles were taken over, humanity would not survive because the people in the Party were once normal people with kindness and compassion like the Proles, weren't they? But when the Party took over they still lost their humanity.
Connor-
I agree. This book is extremely depressing. Did Orwell really think that the future would be like this?
~~Paige~~
I don' think that Winston will ever try to rebel again, because he doesn't see a point in it in anyway. He loves BB now, and he has been hurt in so many ways I don't think he can ever completely heal.
paigen, your comment confuses me...how did you get to this conclusion?
Oh! Sarah! Off of your comment, in his dream, they had the wall separating the two, but when he was in Room 101, he tried to imagine the wall inbetween him and the rats and tried to imagine him getting as far away from him. I don't know how to explain it, but I think of some significance here.
We have talked about white and black/ night and day soo many times.
I agree with Kimmy. I think Winston is done trying to rebel. He thinks differently now because he loves BB. His whole persective is different now.
Shauna
i agree with you in that black symbolizes evil. Also night is usually associated with black or dark colors and going off all the other books we have read everything bad happens at night. So the color black and night could be connected.
paige-
thats a good question.
i think that white does symbolize good, and black bad, but im not sure if he is still subconsciously thinking agianst the party. or maybe if he is, he doesnt look at it as rebelling. you know what i mean?
like even if he is still thinking deeper then they want him to, he is not doing it on purpose, because they have overcome his insanity, and he is now the kind of guy they want him to be. right??
Connor-I definitely agree. This was a very depressing book. And I was also wondering what Sara was. Could Orwell seriously have thought that something like this would happen to the world? It just seems strange that he could think that something that drastic could happen in only 20 years or so.
~~Christa~~
I don't think that the party can take over the proles. There are way too many proles for the party to hope to control.
Sarah,
In the cafe Winston made the connection that white always wins in chess and the arrow on the map that represents Oceania is white, that makes the conclusion that Oceania always will win. That is a pretty in depth thought and he is almost going back to how he was. Does that make sense? Basically he thinks that no matter what Oceania will always win because in chess white always wins. I hope that helps.
Chelsea
Good point! He could be like Parsons where he appears to be all for the Party, but subconsciously he doesn't like them.
I think it is ironic that Winston says "White always mates" and "good always wins over evil", but we read the book and we think that the Party is evil and that Winston's capitulation is wrong.
tanal, can't white also symbolize evil in 1984? After all, in the place where there is so much evil, The Ministry of Love, everything is white and bright. Couldn't, then, white also be considered the color of "evil?"
The proles really do hold the only hope for typical humanity to come back. They are so many people that they could not possibly be controlled.
Paige--
yeah i agree. and like maybe he is actually rebelling, even if he thinks he isnt.
Tana
I definately agree with you!
In F451 they put fires out at night.
In Macbeth, they murdered the king at night.
In LOTF attacks and killings happend at night.
In 1984 they were snatched from their beds at night and darkness represents evil.
Sorry, kind of off topic, but I wanted to comment on what someone said in the inner circle about freedom. Winston thought that to die hating them was freedom. It is the same in reverse. To die thinking whatever "they" want you to think is true slavery. People are so controlled, that if someone manages to break away, even right before they die, they are free.
What do you think is the significance of the quote, "Under the spreading chestnut tree/ I sold you and you sold me-"...?
paigen, that makes sense. Thanks!
There is seriously no way Winston chalenges the system ever again. Like they wouldnt keep an eye on him and like he would risk going back to room 101.
I agree with Kimberly, I dont feel Winston will ever try to rebell again. After being put through what the Ministry of Love did to him, Winston I feel is back to normal. At first I thought he might still have rebellious thoughts, but when I read about how excited he was about the war updates, and how he said they were at war with Eastasia (they had always been at war with Eastasia), i was convinced he was normal again. Then when he said he loved Big Brother I was positive he was cured.
You're right Sarah! This is kinda of an opposite world compared to us. So when white always wins, evil seems to win. But this seems weird because shortly after he realizes this, he suddenly loves Big Brother.
Sarah-
I agree. Whte could symbolize evil, because it is the reflection of all colors and can be manipulated to turn into any color. this is similar to how the Party manipulates everything in the society and blends everything together to control the people.
I think the reason that Winston realizes that he loves BB is because he realizes that since White(good) always wins, then since BB always wins, then BB must be good. So Winston loves what he believes is good.
Do you think that Insanity is in eye of the beholder?
Christa-That's a good point. In almost everything we see in movies or TV or books, everything has a happy ending because that's what people like to see. But in this book, it's kind of a kill-joy book. I was hoping that maybe Winston would figure out a way to take over the government and BB. But nope..this book was pretty sad still.
alexd, the significance of that quote is that Julia and Winston betrayed each other. They sold each other to the Party in order to keep themselves alive. And just like Rutherford, Winston gets tears in his eyes. Why?
I agree with you Shauna. Everything we would think is bad or evil always seems to happen at night. Yes, it's happened this way in our books, but think about real life. Doesn't it seem like most bad things in life happen at night?
Kimmy
Maybe the Party doesn't want to control the proles. Maybe they think they are so insignificant that it doesn't matter if they control them or not. They want to control the people of complex thought.
Sarah
you make a very good point. It almost seems that in 1984, they made everything white because it does seem like such a "good" color and happy and no one would ever suspect that it is actually bad. maybe they thought it would be to obvious if everthing was black, so BB and the party were covering it up with the color white.
Alex-
I think that insanity is in the eye of the beholder, because Winston think that O'Brien is slightly insane because of his devotion to the Party, but the Party tells Winston that he is insane for believing in false memories and for rebelling.
Alex D-What are you really asking? Like a person that's insane to one is completely normal to another?
christas, I agree with your comment (very good, I never thought of that!).
Sara, but in this book, didn't people seem safer at night?
Well hannah but then on the news it seems like they always want to report the bad news, or the insignificant news. People now also are most attracted by the bad news.
off of what the inner circle is saying:
i think that if everyone was the same and "perfect", that is what it seems the Party and O'Brien want them to be. they want them to all believe the same things, think the same things, etc.
its like they want that "ideal" "perfect" community, that they think would be ideal for accomplishing what they want.
christa-
i think it is irnoic too because how the book ends the party would be white and winston going agaisnt would be black. but throughout the whole rest of the book we would think that the party is the black and winston is white.
oh brian! not on the blog too...
But yes, according to O'Brein, Winston is cured. He finally loves BB, and he is finally brainwashing himself from the painful truth. He is numbing himself to the bad that is happening in the world.
Brian-That's very true. I guess people just don't really know what they want. People like seeing a happy ending in movies but on the news (in real life) people like the bad news.
About black and white--
I wonder if the black and white are also supposed to be ironic. White tends to represent good, and it is sort of the Party in the metaphor. So the Party is white, but it only pretends to be good. Kind of reminds me of the slogans.
Paigen-- I don't think that Winston truly loves Big Brother, but now that he has betrayed Julia, I think that he forgot how to love and what love really is. So, in his mind, he really does love Big Brother, but it is only because Big Brother has taken over and appears as his only friend.
They sold each other over to the Party. But at the same time, they sold themselves over to the party by giving in and not standing up for what they beleive in.
Has Winston really become a prole? He still has the overalls and he still has a job in a division of the Ministry of Truth?
Does Winton want to be a prole?
It seems like Winston doesn't care much anymore about his own life. He drinks more than ever and has been sucked into the ideas of the Party and Big Brother.
Christas and Jessb-- What would happen if a whole lot of people rebelled at once? With only two people in secret it didn't work, but if a lot of people rebelled openly, could they succeed?
Rats seemed to be a symbol of fear and evil.
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