Thursday, April 05, 2007

Per. 2 Fishbowl 1984 37-69

80 Comments:

Blogger christa s said...

One thing that I wanted to discuss is I found this critical anaylsis of 1984, and it says that one of the inspirations for the book was Macbeth. What similarities do you guys see between 1984 and Macbeth?

Fri Apr 06, 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

lets get it started in hereerererererere! and the base keeps running running etc.

haha lets get it started.

Fri Apr 06, 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Hm. 1984 and Macbeth. Well, there seems to be that tragic hero connection. Both of the main characters know they're going to die, but want to die well.

Fri Apr 06, 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Well: as in happy.

Fri Apr 06, 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

They dont really want to die, but they would rather live a life of purpose instead of being a lifeless drone. If death comes sooner then so be it.

Fri Apr 06, 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger elyseh said...

One connection I saw with 1984 and Macbeth is that in one part of the book it says Winston awakes with the work "Shakespeare" on his lips

Fri Apr 06, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

annaw, how is Winston a tragic hero? Please explain. He doesn't really seem to contain the elements of a tragic hero...

Fri Apr 06, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger paigen said...

THe fishbowl is boring, does anyone have a good question?

Fri Apr 06, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

hmmm...But Macbeth seemd more blind to his death. He wants a lot of power. Winston only wants to perform some little act of rebellion. He is practically waiting to die.

Fri Apr 06, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Was Macbeth a mindless drone, though?

Fri Apr 06, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

I say that we don't do the generic "similarities" dicussion.

It seems we've already come to an agreeement about the fact that they are both tragic heroes. Can we leave it at that, or do we have to continue with it?

I'm curious: where did you find that critical analysis?

Fri Apr 06, 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

sarahc-

Winston, tough he knows ,"thoughtcrime is death," he still continues the crimes.

Fri Apr 06, 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

I don't think Macbeth was mindless. He was blinded yes, but not mindless. That implies that he is crazy, that he doesn't know what he is doing. Yet, he still was able to make a plan and go through with it sanely.

Fri Apr 06, 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

This relates more to farenheit then macbeth.

Fri Apr 06, 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Well with the tragic hero, Winston is in kind of a high position at his work. At least, high enough. He's just a regular person. He then realizes though, that he could do more, or that theres more to life. He will probably end up doing something, trying to challenge the system (here's that topic again) and could probably end up dying (but who knows...).

Fri Apr 06, 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

critical analysis? Elaborate, please.

Fri Apr 06, 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

Macbeth's greed got in the way of his mind though. Because he wanted power so much he decided to do anything to get that... that created his downfall.

Fri Apr 06, 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Look critical analysis 1984 on google. You'll find lots of results.

Fri Apr 06, 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

The FIRST post was based on the critical analysis. Look before you ask, please

Fri Apr 06, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

I don't think that Winston will ever try to challenge the system. I think that he knows that something is going on. But he won't openly challenge people

Fri Apr 06, 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Do you think Winston will make the same mistake as Macbeth? Not with power, but maybe just defying B.B.?

Fri Apr 06, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

Fri Apr 06, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

or the system. He wants to change, but doesn't know how too. I think pretty soon he may be vaporated or something bad will happen to him; however, it won't be because he openly challenged Big Brother in front of the public.

Fri Apr 06, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger elyseh said...

Along with the inner circles conversation I decided that Newspeak is almost a way to stop the public from thinking as much. In a way I think it is kind of a control to make sure that nobody thinks too much and finds out that there government is a fake.

Fri Apr 06, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

okay sorry i couldn't get my blogger to work but anyways, there is sort of a connection with Macbth because of the relationships, especially between Winston and Katerine just like Macbeth and Lady macbeth

Fri Apr 06, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Jessica- if you don't think that he ever will, what do you think the story will be about?

It would make no sense in the plot to not have him do something daring and adventurous, as what happens in all the rest of these books.

Fri Apr 06, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

wat do you mean anna? not power? When does Macbeth defy someone above him?

Fri Apr 06, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Moving on:

What about the children? WInston's comrade mentioned being proud of his children for noticing foreign shoes

Fri Apr 06, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger DeclanH said...

i agree with you alex, but in a lot of Brave New World, nothing happens. Seriously. Nothing at all.

Fri Apr 06, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

Anna
How is Winston a tragic hero? He has not done anything yet. Please explain.

Fri Apr 06, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger alexd said...

The proles are the lower class who are not allowed to rise into the party.

Fri Apr 06, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

alex-

I think that the story will just consist of how the government controls Winston. I think that he will be "vaporized", sure, but he won't stand up and publically announce that he doens't agree with Big Brother, like Farhenheit.

Fri Apr 06, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

jberry-

Macbeth wanted power, at the cost of his sanity and life.

Winston is defying B.B. Will he get so extreme, too?

Fri Apr 06, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

I think that BB is focusing on children more so they can pick out all the "bad" people while training children for future jobs.

Fri Apr 06, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

alexd

how come they arent allowed to rise into the party?

Fri Apr 06, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Winston as a tragic hero?

I know he hasn't done anything yet, but he seems willing to risk his life for his beliefs.

Fri Apr 06, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

Anna
I don't think that Winston is defying BB that much, he is just writing in a journal. I think it is an overstatement to say that he is defying BB

Fri Apr 06, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Well he can stand up subtly too and rebel. For instance, his diary. That is not allowed throughout the people and he knows that if he is caught, he will be vaporized. That is one way that he rebels. But as the story progresses, I imagine so will the things that he do and he will more to challenge the system.

Fri Apr 06, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

annaw, the comment about being caught for different shoes astounded me. if anyone is different in any way: hair, scent, clothes, shoes, socks, etc., would they be turned in as a spy? it makes me wonder if these kids really THINK at all. All they seem to see is enemies of the party all around them.

Fri Apr 06, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

Well the children are kind of creepy to me. I remember Winston talking about how he never saw someone with good shoes, or no holes in their socks.

Fri Apr 06, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Declan-

WELL THATS JUST GREAT!

My gosh, these stories are all the same!

Why don't we read something with SUBSTANCE???

Fri Apr 06, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger elyseh said...

Shauna I agree, plus if BB starts trainging the children to the society then they can report their parents or other people they notice who are goin against the law, and it's like our society in a way just raising your children "right" from the start.

Fri Apr 06, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Phillips said...

Shauna-
The party is focusing on controlling the children because they are the next generation. Winston's generation can remember before the revolution allowing them to think that there can be a different, better way of life.

Fri Apr 06, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

Winston doesnt challenge it in public. that would be idiotic. He challenges it in his own ways. Its not like he is going to go to the middle of the town and yelling down with bb!!! That wouldnt be too successful

Fri Apr 06, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

What do you think the kids do at school?! Do they learn anything more than being spies?

Fri Apr 06, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

Thank Alex, all the stroies from theis time period are the same. 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, all of them.

Fri Apr 06, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

His personality just doesn't seem like the kind of person who would take the extra step. He's no MLK or Rosa Parks or anything. It takes people like that to challenge the system. He wonders about the "outside" of BB but doens't seem like he will have enough initiative to step up.

Fri Apr 06, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

anna

he could become a tragic hero like in Macbeth but we don't know that for sure yet. Nothing has happened to make him a tragic hero yet.

Okay 1984 is related to Fahrenheit 451 again because Montag from f451 breaks the laws by owning books and reading them. Also in 1984 Winston has his diary

Fri Apr 06, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

sorry i posted that like right as Brian said the exact same thing

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

sarah

ya i agree with you. i think the kids are being trained to turn people in. There are even willing to turn in their parentts to the Thought Police. I dont know even know if the children have heard something their parents have said or if they are like "Mom took away my toy and im so mad im going to turn her in to the Thought Police. I think they are training them to think everyone is a spy and not to trust anyone.

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

You can not be rosa parks or MLK in this society. You have to be hidden like the brotherhood. Small steps are the only way to beat BB.

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger DeclanH said...

Alex

This one picks up if i remember right...possibly

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger elyseh said...

Phillip, I know that Winston can sort of remember things from before the party, but does it seem to anyone else that Winston is alone in his memory? It seems like everyone else thinks that all history they are told is correct. We've discussed this before but it is really weird how much the media draws this society to believe.

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

Sorry this is kind of from forever ago but my computer wouldn't let me post. I agree with Jess. I don't really see a real storng connection between Macbeth and 1984. Macbeth was trying to gaiikin poser and was slowly blinded by his own greed. I don't see the same trait in Winston.

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

The children turning people in to the government because of their shoes is a lot like Senator McCarthy during the Red Scare, where he accused people of being communist with no proof. All the people are becoming so paranoid that they think that everything is against the government.

Fri Apr 06, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

We should read Vonnegut. At least he's funny sometimes. Cat's Cradle shows more evidence of human idiocies than all of F451, Macbeth, and 1984 put together.

Too bad she doesn't like his style.

Fri Apr 06, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger jberry said...

Adriana Just brought up a good point about 451 everyone was wealthy and 1984 everyone was poor. What does that say about the government. Which government is more fair?

To me--

451 was a gvt on the idea of making people happy and 1984 was the control of people in fear.

Fri Apr 06, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger alexd said...

Comrade Olgary was a replacement idea to replace a false idea. I think that 1984 about the problems that were happening in our nation.

Fri Apr 06, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

jberry-

True, but unlike many around him, he dared to defy the Party.

Montag did the same thing, but he found others. Do you think Winston will be ale to escape with others against B.B.? Or is he doomed as he believes?

Fri Apr 06, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

Hey guys i think we need to pick one topic and have a discussion on that instead of having a few different conversations going on, on the blogger

Fri Apr 06, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Well thats a certain kind of relief.

Even still, that doesn't change my views.

can we change the subject?

Fri Apr 06, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

Winston finds others...

Fri Apr 06, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

I agree with Jess again. F451's government seemed to try to keep everyone happy. In 1984, it seems like people think they are happy because the government said they are.

Fri Apr 06, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

I noticed that while they are on the lunch break and Winston is talking to Syme, the book mentions quacking a lot. The man behind them is talking a ton, but much of it was unrecongnizable and it was certain to be pure orthodox speach, "The stuff coming out of him consisted of words, but it was not speech in the true sense: it was a noise uttered in unconsciousness, like the quacking of a duck" (Orwell 54). Later on, when they are talking about Newspeak, "There is a word in Newspeak,' said Syme. 'I don't know whether you know it: duckspeak, to quack like a duck. It is one of those interesting words that have two contradictiory meanings. Applied to an opponent,, it is abuse; applied to someonw you agree with, it is praise" (Orwell 55). I found this interesting that they mention this so much in this section. Why do you think Orwell does that? What is the significance of it?

Fri Apr 06, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger Phillips said...

Anna-
I say that Winston is doomed. In this society nobody knows what is real and what isn't. The Brotherhood might be a fake organization meant to unite people for Big Brother and to root people out who are against the party and remove them.

Fri Apr 06, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

I don't get what you're asking Kathryn.

Fri Apr 06, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

i agree with Sara and Jess about the government between f451 and 1984. I think that also in 1984 that the government is a lot more strict and keeps better track of the people of Oceania than the government did in f451

Fri Apr 06, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

Maybe 'duckspeak' implies thoughtcrime?

Fri Apr 06, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

I think quacking means that no one knows what they are talking about. Its just jibberish since no one can really think on their own.

Fri Apr 06, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

In the Inner Circle, they are talking about is the book was a future where the Nazi's were in control. This is completly untrue. Hitler, first of all was voted into power. They did not control your jobs or personal life. Their secrect police, which every government has, hunted down Jews, not non-conformers. 3/4s of my family is direcly from Germany, one of my great grandfathers hated the Nazis, he protested them, and for that, they put him in the military, not jil, they didn't kill him. My other one was in the party and was a school teacher. This book is not about Nazi Germany, no where close.

Fri Apr 06, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

duckspeak definitely isnt thought crime

Fri Apr 06, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

But when Syme speaks, it's not gibberish. So why is it implied that he was quacking like a duck?

Fri Apr 06, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

chelsea blog isnt working so this is from her.



-annaw-
i think that winston is one of the more defiant people of the society, so im not sure if others would want to escape with him. they may think about it, but might not have the guts to actually go through with it.
i think that people have the ability to somewhat know what is going to happen to them (what their fate is) so what he thinks might be an extreme of what really may happen, or it could really come true. its hard to guess.

Chelsea

Fri Apr 06, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

Also on the quacking, since the people of the town are not aloud to express any feelings or anything, it could be that some of the people don't know any of the language because they haven't spokn before, if that makes any sense.

Fri Apr 06, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Sorry, my comment was off topic. I started writing it in a lull, trying to get some more thoughts going. I'm asking why Orwell mentions ducks. What is their significance? Why would he mention them when it seems so out of the blue and mostly unrealated to the book?

Fri Apr 06, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger paigen said...

In regards to the relationship between Macbeth and 1984, I agree that they would rather live a life of purpose than be lifeless drones. It is almost like if they don't challenge the system, they will be dead anyways.

Sat Apr 07, 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

I was noticing everyone's comments on Macbeth and how he wasn't mindless and I agree somewhat. Macbeth is trying to rebel like Winston, but Duncan (i think that was his name) wasn't a bad leader. It is almost like Macbeth is the Big Brother that is trying to rebel. That kind of connects everyone's different opinions.

Sat Apr 07, 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

I actually don't think that Macbeth is a whole lot like to 1984. However, 1984 is almost identical to Fahrenheit 451. They are both about oppressive governments and one person that somehow managed to escape their brainwashing and now is trying to challenge them.

Sat Apr 07, 07:26:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

Along with Shauna's comment about the children, I think that the children are so much more strict about Big Brother's rules is because they are the second generation so this is all that they know, whereas the first generation knows that there is more to life than being mindless drones.

Sat Apr 07, 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger paigen said...

Kathyrn, I like your comment about "duckspeak". Why would the government invent a word that is basically saying you are talking like a mindless idiot. Wouldn't they want you to talk like that becuase it would show that you are very brainwashed? Wouldn't they just call it talking then?

Sat Apr 07, 07:31:00 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home