Thursday, April 05, 2007

Per. 5 Fishbowl 1984 37-69

74 Comments:

Blogger danh said...

Let's get this party started!

Fri Apr 06, 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

OK. I have a question. (Big Surprise)

Why does the party not treat their members better?

Fri Apr 06, 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Emily-Who is the Party? Who is in it that isn't treating its members well?

Fri Apr 06, 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

So I had a connection to The Chosen. You know how eyes are the window to the soul in that book? Well what do you think the significance of the man who looked like he had no eyes was?

Fri Apr 06, 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Emily L.--Everyone already pledges their complete loyalty to the Party; what would they have to gain by making them happy?

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

Yea, I don't get who the Party is

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

I think what she means is how they get such terrible products, like bad cigarretes and gin.

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

Maria, the Party is the political party that B.B. is the head of.

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Good point Maria. I somtimes wonder if the Party even exists.

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

What exactly is doublethink?

Fri Apr 06, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Sarah-Is B.B. a real person do you think?

Fri Apr 06, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

Hannah--that is an amazing question. I think that it represents how brainwashed he is, he follows BLINDLY to what he is told.

Fri Apr 06, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

I just meant that the heads of the party giving the other members victory gin etc..

Fri Apr 06, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

If people knew that their were better smokes 'n' drinks out there, wouldn't they begin to wonder that about other things too? Playing cards? Chocolate? Housing? Government?

Fri Apr 06, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Oh by the way my first comment had to do with page 54 close to the bottom.

Fri Apr 06, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

The Party. Notice it is singular, not like our socity with multiple parties.

Fri Apr 06, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

Maria-
I don't know. I think he isn't. I think he is just a made-up person who is like a puppet used by a mastermind to control the public, maybe it's even Goldstein puppet.

Fri Apr 06, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

Thomas--good point, I think that if the the Minitrue is telling them there is nothing else out there, they are going to believe it and not question it. Even if they do wonder, I think they are too scared to do anything about it.

Fri Apr 06, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

Fri Apr 06, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

Sarah-- that is intense. It would make sense considering how everything is contradictory of itself in their society, it would be the ultamite irony.

Fri Apr 06, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I wonder how the people at the Minitrue are able to collect every issue of the Times that is being recalled.

Fri Apr 06, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger emilya said...

Yes Kenna I agree with your response to Tom... they believe anything and everything the ministry tells them. They are basically brainwashed by their government. Also, they don't think outside the box and about new things because they may be afriad of the thoughtpolice...

Fri Apr 06, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

here is the comment kenna is responding to:
mphair, I think the party is like a communism, there is only ONE politcial party.
I wanted to add that it is not like democracy, which thrives on opposition in Politics.

Fri Apr 06, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

So who is the leader? Winston mentions a group of people who control Minitru and decide what needs to be changed, but who are they? What if it is just one person and not a group?

Fri Apr 06, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Sarah C,

This book is written in the middle of the cold war. It most DEFINATELY is a reference to communism.

Fri Apr 06, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Question time: what did the world gain by swtiching the borders of countries and changing their names? I mean, Oceania... what's with that?

Fri Apr 06, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Sarahc-

That's what I meant. Singular, NO opposition. It isn't like "communisim" as in Marxisim, but like Soviet Communisim instead.

But, as the Paroles tell, there still are CLASS DIFFERENCES...

Fri Apr 06, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

Sarah-

this book's party is almost exactly like communism like you said, but yet it is not. They rose to the top by eliminating other parties. But still, it isn't even close to the theory of communism. Big Brother isn't even trying to make everyone in his community equal. Winston is supposedly high up in the party, and he is also treated with suspicion.

Fri Apr 06, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

maria, I think that the leaders of each Ministry might be the mastermind behind the party (either BB or someone else), and they are the ones organizing everything.

Fri Apr 06, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger emilya said...

So in this book, is the only leader Big Brother? Are they not ruled by anyone else? Is Big Brother even real? Do they even question whether he is real or not?

Fri Apr 06, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

I wasn't sure if they changed the names, or that the names are similar to prove that this world is parallel to our world. Or maybe, the world of 1984 is meant to intersect at some point with our world.

Fri Apr 06, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Maria,

So far we have not met a definate leader. There is Big Brother but yet we have no evidence that he is a real person.

Fri Apr 06, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

I see 1984 as more of a caste system, everyone has their place and that's that.

Fri Apr 06, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

tomr-

You have a point. It doesn't look like they even have a chance to rise in ranks

Fri Apr 06, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

hannah, Oceana is hte name of England, as seen from the point of veiw from someone in 1949. I think he was going along with the fact that the government is erasing the past.

Fri Apr 06, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

Emily-

could there even be a leader? maybe big brother is like a computer being that can endlessly control it's people. Maybe programmed a person of the past that had a vision that than went horribly wrong. OOOOOhhhhhhhhh the conspiracy theories!?!?!? the aliens are coming, area 51!?!?

Fri Apr 06, 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

It is like the whole society is reverting back to childlike ways and trusting in their "Big Brother" to take care of them. Whether or not he exists, he is a leader, they follow him fearfully and respectfully, like children follow their parents.

Fri Apr 06, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger tomr said...

Actually, Sarah, Oceania encompasses a lot more than England in the book. Do you think maybe it expanded from the present Oceania we know and love?

Fri Apr 06, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

riley-
This is like the USSR communism, like mphair said. They got rid of all opposition, in a similar fashion as Stalin did.

Fri Apr 06, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sorry, programmed by a person of the past.

Fri Apr 06, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Tom,

I think they select people into castes when they are born. There is no choice or rising up.

Fri Apr 06, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Hannahs and Sarahc-

He also claims seeing London and a bunch (later on) of famous English churches

Fri Apr 06, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

Fri Apr 06, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger zachf said...

Riley- Big Brother could just be a symbol of power and rule in the society in 1984. Big Broher could be like Jim Crow in the sense that he's not a real person but still holds so much power in a society.

Fri Apr 06, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

I agree with Riley, and when he said that The Party rose up by eliminating other parties, it reminded me of Nazism. Big Brother's party is also using the telescreens to manipulate the citizens, and hopefully make every person like the man in the cafeteria who was obsessed with Big Brother. Hitler and the Nazis wanted to eliminate the Jewish people and almost everyone else who was not part of the "elite race."

Fri Apr 06, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-

no, the USSR commy's say they follow communism, but it is not the same as real communism.

Fri Apr 06, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

tom-
I think that Oceania might encompass England, France, Western Europe, and America.
or, Oceania is just Western Europe, and it's two enemies are America and Eastern Europe+USSR

Fri Apr 06, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Could Oceania be the US and Eurasia be the USSR?

Fri Apr 06, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

zachf- Really good connection between big brother and Jim Crow. How can a public figure or idea hove so much power?

Fri Apr 06, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

How did the society get this way? Who changed the geography?

Fri Apr 06, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

Ty-- good observation, it also has a long passage about how all the men in the party are short, dark haired and beaty eyed.

Fri Apr 06, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-

i don't think that one of big brother's enemies is eastern europe because in that direction is what was than actually Russia. They would not portrey them as the "good" guys in this book.

Fri Apr 06, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

riley, that's what I was saying...Oceania's government is like USSR's gov. in that they get rid of opposition.
ty, in Nazism, Hitler got to power by manipulating other parties, not getting rid of them.

Fri Apr 06, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

Map of the World of 1984

Fri Apr 06, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

rsinn_butontfire:

That is what I was saying above. They do not follow Marxisim, but Soviet Communisim, who started witht the same ideas but instead left off on a diferent road.

Fri Apr 06, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

Click on the link

Fri Apr 06, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger danh said...

Ok, so maybe Oceania is another name for England. But in the book, Oceania isn't England, it's the area. England is called Airstrip 1. Why is it an Airstrip? Is it because England is a military base? If so, the big question is, why does the Party believe that war is the answer, when it's not?

Fri Apr 06, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

GOod point Sarah, but isn't it the same idea?

Fri Apr 06, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

riley, where do they mention directions in the book?

Fri Apr 06, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

wow ben, thats cool, i don't no how to create a link... anyways, great map.

Fri Apr 06, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger kenna_d said...

hannah-- that is such a good connection oh my goodness! It makes total sense that a widely believed idea, in a society without the permission of ideas, would so easily follow a false figure. Big Brother is the only thing they can think about without being in fear of the thoughtpolice, if they are good thoughts of course...

Fri Apr 06, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

I think it is an airstrip becuase of the Royal Air Force's power in WW2. This book was written right after WW2. Orwell could be bragging about them.

Fri Apr 06, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Looking at the map, it looks like Oceania is slowly taking over the world.

Fri Apr 06, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Nice ben, that helps so much. So what is the disputed land, why hasn't that been claimed? Is that what the war is about?

Fri Apr 06, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger TyC said...

Good map, Ben.

Fri Apr 06, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

ya, It kind of is ty.

Fri Apr 06, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-

u mentioned just than, that eastern europe and america are the enemies of big brother. That would portrey eastern europe (what was back than Russia, which were the commy's) as the good guys, which is not right. I'm just saying that the author would not have written the book with that in mind.

Fri Apr 06, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

War is a way to rally people together around a common idea of hate. Also, a government's power is expanded in a time of war. For example, during the Civil War, Lincoln was able to suspend people's right to Habeous-Corpus (I think that is how you spell it) which would not be widely accepted otherwise.

Fri Apr 06, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Do you think that the rest of the world is just as brainwashed as the Party?

Fri Apr 06, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger BenH said...

I do not think that it really matters to the proles. They just do what they can to get by, and the ideology of the party does not matter that much to them. But we have yet to see.

Fri Apr 06, 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Michelle, I think that all members of the party are brainwashed to the same extent. However, the proles probably aren't so brainwashed becasue they are considered inferior.

Sun Apr 08, 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

The world is divided into three territories and Oceania is one of them. They pretty much cover the entire earth. Oceania we know contains Britain because the story is set in London. When the revolution happened the world was divided up like this and it is kind of an example of how their society is losing individuality. The world is as it would be if there were no democracy and capitalism to make sure that one person or group never gained too much power. This leads me to believe that the rest of the world IS brainwashed like Oceania though maybe on a different scale and in a different way.

I think that the most interesting thing is Newspeak. This section speaks a lot of newspeak and how it is systematically destroying language and words and thus, thoughts. This is the most defining part of the 1984 society, the lack of thought. Everything that the party does is in an efforty to stifle thought in order to maintain more control over its people. What role, then, do the proles play? How can the proles and the party exist simultaneously when they are so different from each other? Wouldn't each group get ideas from the other? The next section begins with the thought, "If there is hope, it lies with the proles." What does this mean about their society? Is all hope lost for party members?

Mon Apr 09, 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger Aylar said...

I completly agree with Lane on the Point of Oceanica, It seems that because there is no check and balence system to keep the differnet parties like we have today in check the parties have melded into one the party. An unchanganable and above reproch governmet that was both feared and unquestioned by the citezins. Is this a prediction by Orvel??? Is he saying that one day our pretty little govermnets will meld into one all controlling and unchecked govermnet? As we see in 1984 the theroy of this is ridiculious, however if we think that people can't be taken over just look at the great dictators of the world Hitler, Stalin, ect. THey controlled their people very well telling then DON"T THINK listen to me, I think that Orvel definatly pulled dictators of the world into his book to portray the books government. He also has made a serios point in showing that people such a Winston do not believe in what the government is doing just as many rebeled against Hitler. Of course those who oppose are imediadlty killed and that is where fear sets in. The govermnet in 1984 is completely based on fear and a mob mentality. There is no freedom for people.
Of course this where Orvel takes another interesting twist, poor people and dogs have freedoms that other don't. Isn't that interesting!!!!??? 85% of the population have freedoms and yet there has never been a rebelion, WHY??? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!!!!! If many rally together the govermnet will fall. COME ON STICK IT TO THE MAN!!!! CHANENGE THE SYSTEM!!!!!

Mon Apr 09, 08:18:00 PM  

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