Per. 5 Fishbowl 1984 37-69
posted by annes @ 8:33 AM
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Previous Posts
- Communism v. Socialism v. Marxism
- Period Five- Discussion
- Period Two- The Discussion Continues
- Wednesday April 4, 2007 - Period 2
- A Scribe for Period Five
- Fishbowl 1984 Per. 5 Book 1:1-3
- Fishbowl 1984 Per. 2 Book 1:1-3
- Scribe for April 3 Smith's Period 2 (clever title ...
- Scribe 4/3 Period 5
- Just For You, Period Two. Scribe Monday April 2, 2...
74 Comments:
Let's get this party started!
OK. I have a question. (Big Surprise)
Why does the party not treat their members better?
Emily-Who is the Party? Who is in it that isn't treating its members well?
So I had a connection to The Chosen. You know how eyes are the window to the soul in that book? Well what do you think the significance of the man who looked like he had no eyes was?
Emily L.--Everyone already pledges their complete loyalty to the Party; what would they have to gain by making them happy?
Yea, I don't get who the Party is
I think what she means is how they get such terrible products, like bad cigarretes and gin.
Maria, the Party is the political party that B.B. is the head of.
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Good point Maria. I somtimes wonder if the Party even exists.
What exactly is doublethink?
Sarah-Is B.B. a real person do you think?
Hannah--that is an amazing question. I think that it represents how brainwashed he is, he follows BLINDLY to what he is told.
I just meant that the heads of the party giving the other members victory gin etc..
If people knew that their were better smokes 'n' drinks out there, wouldn't they begin to wonder that about other things too? Playing cards? Chocolate? Housing? Government?
Oh by the way my first comment had to do with page 54 close to the bottom.
The Party. Notice it is singular, not like our socity with multiple parties.
Maria-
I don't know. I think he isn't. I think he is just a made-up person who is like a puppet used by a mastermind to control the public, maybe it's even Goldstein puppet.
Thomas--good point, I think that if the the Minitrue is telling them there is nothing else out there, they are going to believe it and not question it. Even if they do wonder, I think they are too scared to do anything about it.
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Sarah-- that is intense. It would make sense considering how everything is contradictory of itself in their society, it would be the ultamite irony.
I wonder how the people at the Minitrue are able to collect every issue of the Times that is being recalled.
Yes Kenna I agree with your response to Tom... they believe anything and everything the ministry tells them. They are basically brainwashed by their government. Also, they don't think outside the box and about new things because they may be afriad of the thoughtpolice...
here is the comment kenna is responding to:
mphair, I think the party is like a communism, there is only ONE politcial party.
I wanted to add that it is not like democracy, which thrives on opposition in Politics.
So who is the leader? Winston mentions a group of people who control Minitru and decide what needs to be changed, but who are they? What if it is just one person and not a group?
Sarah C,
This book is written in the middle of the cold war. It most DEFINATELY is a reference to communism.
Question time: what did the world gain by swtiching the borders of countries and changing their names? I mean, Oceania... what's with that?
Sarahc-
That's what I meant. Singular, NO opposition. It isn't like "communisim" as in Marxisim, but like Soviet Communisim instead.
But, as the Paroles tell, there still are CLASS DIFFERENCES...
Sarah-
this book's party is almost exactly like communism like you said, but yet it is not. They rose to the top by eliminating other parties. But still, it isn't even close to the theory of communism. Big Brother isn't even trying to make everyone in his community equal. Winston is supposedly high up in the party, and he is also treated with suspicion.
maria, I think that the leaders of each Ministry might be the mastermind behind the party (either BB or someone else), and they are the ones organizing everything.
So in this book, is the only leader Big Brother? Are they not ruled by anyone else? Is Big Brother even real? Do they even question whether he is real or not?
I wasn't sure if they changed the names, or that the names are similar to prove that this world is parallel to our world. Or maybe, the world of 1984 is meant to intersect at some point with our world.
Maria,
So far we have not met a definate leader. There is Big Brother but yet we have no evidence that he is a real person.
I see 1984 as more of a caste system, everyone has their place and that's that.
tomr-
You have a point. It doesn't look like they even have a chance to rise in ranks
hannah, Oceana is hte name of England, as seen from the point of veiw from someone in 1949. I think he was going along with the fact that the government is erasing the past.
Emily-
could there even be a leader? maybe big brother is like a computer being that can endlessly control it's people. Maybe programmed a person of the past that had a vision that than went horribly wrong. OOOOOhhhhhhhhh the conspiracy theories!?!?!? the aliens are coming, area 51!?!?
It is like the whole society is reverting back to childlike ways and trusting in their "Big Brother" to take care of them. Whether or not he exists, he is a leader, they follow him fearfully and respectfully, like children follow their parents.
Actually, Sarah, Oceania encompasses a lot more than England in the book. Do you think maybe it expanded from the present Oceania we know and love?
riley-
This is like the USSR communism, like mphair said. They got rid of all opposition, in a similar fashion as Stalin did.
sorry, programmed by a person of the past.
Tom,
I think they select people into castes when they are born. There is no choice or rising up.
Hannahs and Sarahc-
He also claims seeing London and a bunch (later on) of famous English churches
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Riley- Big Brother could just be a symbol of power and rule in the society in 1984. Big Broher could be like Jim Crow in the sense that he's not a real person but still holds so much power in a society.
I agree with Riley, and when he said that The Party rose up by eliminating other parties, it reminded me of Nazism. Big Brother's party is also using the telescreens to manipulate the citizens, and hopefully make every person like the man in the cafeteria who was obsessed with Big Brother. Hitler and the Nazis wanted to eliminate the Jewish people and almost everyone else who was not part of the "elite race."
sarah-
no, the USSR commy's say they follow communism, but it is not the same as real communism.
tom-
I think that Oceania might encompass England, France, Western Europe, and America.
or, Oceania is just Western Europe, and it's two enemies are America and Eastern Europe+USSR
Could Oceania be the US and Eurasia be the USSR?
zachf- Really good connection between big brother and Jim Crow. How can a public figure or idea hove so much power?
How did the society get this way? Who changed the geography?
Ty-- good observation, it also has a long passage about how all the men in the party are short, dark haired and beaty eyed.
sarah-
i don't think that one of big brother's enemies is eastern europe because in that direction is what was than actually Russia. They would not portrey them as the "good" guys in this book.
riley, that's what I was saying...Oceania's government is like USSR's gov. in that they get rid of opposition.
ty, in Nazism, Hitler got to power by manipulating other parties, not getting rid of them.
Map of the World of 1984
rsinn_butontfire:
That is what I was saying above. They do not follow Marxisim, but Soviet Communisim, who started witht the same ideas but instead left off on a diferent road.
Click on the link
Ok, so maybe Oceania is another name for England. But in the book, Oceania isn't England, it's the area. England is called Airstrip 1. Why is it an Airstrip? Is it because England is a military base? If so, the big question is, why does the Party believe that war is the answer, when it's not?
GOod point Sarah, but isn't it the same idea?
riley, where do they mention directions in the book?
wow ben, thats cool, i don't no how to create a link... anyways, great map.
hannah-- that is such a good connection oh my goodness! It makes total sense that a widely believed idea, in a society without the permission of ideas, would so easily follow a false figure. Big Brother is the only thing they can think about without being in fear of the thoughtpolice, if they are good thoughts of course...
I think it is an airstrip becuase of the Royal Air Force's power in WW2. This book was written right after WW2. Orwell could be bragging about them.
Looking at the map, it looks like Oceania is slowly taking over the world.
Nice ben, that helps so much. So what is the disputed land, why hasn't that been claimed? Is that what the war is about?
Good map, Ben.
ya, It kind of is ty.
sarah-
u mentioned just than, that eastern europe and america are the enemies of big brother. That would portrey eastern europe (what was back than Russia, which were the commy's) as the good guys, which is not right. I'm just saying that the author would not have written the book with that in mind.
War is a way to rally people together around a common idea of hate. Also, a government's power is expanded in a time of war. For example, during the Civil War, Lincoln was able to suspend people's right to Habeous-Corpus (I think that is how you spell it) which would not be widely accepted otherwise.
Do you think that the rest of the world is just as brainwashed as the Party?
I do not think that it really matters to the proles. They just do what they can to get by, and the ideology of the party does not matter that much to them. But we have yet to see.
Michelle, I think that all members of the party are brainwashed to the same extent. However, the proles probably aren't so brainwashed becasue they are considered inferior.
The world is divided into three territories and Oceania is one of them. They pretty much cover the entire earth. Oceania we know contains Britain because the story is set in London. When the revolution happened the world was divided up like this and it is kind of an example of how their society is losing individuality. The world is as it would be if there were no democracy and capitalism to make sure that one person or group never gained too much power. This leads me to believe that the rest of the world IS brainwashed like Oceania though maybe on a different scale and in a different way.
I think that the most interesting thing is Newspeak. This section speaks a lot of newspeak and how it is systematically destroying language and words and thus, thoughts. This is the most defining part of the 1984 society, the lack of thought. Everything that the party does is in an efforty to stifle thought in order to maintain more control over its people. What role, then, do the proles play? How can the proles and the party exist simultaneously when they are so different from each other? Wouldn't each group get ideas from the other? The next section begins with the thought, "If there is hope, it lies with the proles." What does this mean about their society? Is all hope lost for party members?
I completly agree with Lane on the Point of Oceanica, It seems that because there is no check and balence system to keep the differnet parties like we have today in check the parties have melded into one the party. An unchanganable and above reproch governmet that was both feared and unquestioned by the citezins. Is this a prediction by Orvel??? Is he saying that one day our pretty little govermnets will meld into one all controlling and unchecked govermnet? As we see in 1984 the theroy of this is ridiculious, however if we think that people can't be taken over just look at the great dictators of the world Hitler, Stalin, ect. THey controlled their people very well telling then DON"T THINK listen to me, I think that Orvel definatly pulled dictators of the world into his book to portray the books government. He also has made a serios point in showing that people such a Winston do not believe in what the government is doing just as many rebeled against Hitler. Of course those who oppose are imediadlty killed and that is where fear sets in. The govermnet in 1984 is completely based on fear and a mob mentality. There is no freedom for people.
Of course this where Orvel takes another interesting twist, poor people and dogs have freedoms that other don't. Isn't that interesting!!!!??? 85% of the population have freedoms and yet there has never been a rebelion, WHY??? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!!!!! If many rally together the govermnet will fall. COME ON STICK IT TO THE MAN!!!! CHANENGE THE SYSTEM!!!!!
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