Period Two Fishbowl Discussion Continues...
Sorry it took so long to post this! I was having a little trouble with Blogger.
Here are some topics that we did not really discuss in depth, but wanted to talk about in the fishbowl:
One thing that seems to be central in 1984 is the lack of relationships. Winston and his wife Katharine, though they were married, almost hated each other, and Katharine viewed having children only as a “duty to the Party”. How does this relate to the lack of relationships in Fahrenheit 451? Also, at the end of Chapter 6, Winston describes his encounter with an old prostitute. Why does he take such desperate measures, and why do you think the Party puts such restrictions on sexual matters?
Labels: and Hannah, Christa, Kim
posted by Anonymous @ 9:52 AM
17 Comments:
Wiston and his wife Katharine hated each other because she only considered having children a "duty to the party." Wiston did not like her because she was not very smart, "she had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan...yet he could of endured living with her if it had not been just for one thing--sex."
Not having relationships makes it impossible for any one to express their opinions. They dont have anyone to talk to and wothout that it would probably be impossible to think of ideas and "challenge the system." Everyone just flows with the system since all they have are "comrades."
Great question....
In both F451 and 1984, the couples stayed together because it was required in a way. Winston and Katherine simple couldn't be legally divorced, so they tried to forget about each other. I get the feeling that Montag and Mildred stayed together because that's what couples did. Mildred would probably be ashamed to be divorced. All of her friends were married, and they didn't care about their husbands either. It reminds me of the period after WWII when everyone was settling down and starting a family. Parties and activities were always attended in couples. One woman said that often, a divorced or unmarried woman would not be invited to events such as barbeques. In F451, everyone wanted to be the same. Mildred would never want to seem unsuccessful and husbandless.
I think that Winston and Katharine didn't get along because their personalities are so different. Winston and Montag both don't like the oppressive governments and want to "change the world". Whereas their wives seem quite content with the government and always do what they are told, it is like the men are married to the government which is what they are trying to challenge (if that makes any sense at all).
Winston took the deep measures because he was desperate for some excitement. He said that that was the only thing exciting about her. The duty has such restrictions because they don't want to give people a sense of freedom (even though they think it's slavery) and they don't want the party to think something could be better than what they do. Katherine feels the duty because it's all that she has now that she's gotten older, plus, women did not have as much value the time the book was written, so she needed Winston to live off of and a child would help it be a longer relationship.
I think that no relationships means that people will not become attached. That way, if a spouse or friend commits thoughtcrime you would turn them in instead of keeping their secret. Plus, having relationships means loyalty. The Party doesn't want loyalty that is not to the Party, so relationships are a no.
It relates to 451 because in both, marriage is kind of a "requirement" that they have. It is peoples' duty to marry so that they can have children (in 1984 mostly). Plus, in both books no one really knew each other. They lived together, but they didn't talk or get to know one another. This also relates to what I said above about how if you are loyal to someone other than the government, you will stand by them instead of by the gov.
There is a very strong lack of relationships in 1984, and it almost seems like a lack of emotion as well. This lack of pure emotion and relationships is much like the relationships in Fahrenheit 451. Montague and Mildred seem to have almost the same relationship as Winston and Katherine did. Both wives seem to be utterly dutyful to the government while the husbands are each off questioning and challenging the government.
I think that Winston takes such desperate measures as to see a prostitute because he hates purity, he likes being corrupt and not following the laws that are so strictly enforced. I think that the Party puts such restrictions on sexual matters because they are trying to prevent such emotional relationships. Love and lust seem to be both strictly forbidden as an effort to refrain people from disobeying the law. When people start forming relationships they start talking, thinking, and eventually challenging the system.
I completely agree with the fact that Winston and Katherine have a very simialr relationship to Montag and Mildred. I think that at the end of the chapter with the prostitute, it was like Winston was challenging the system. I also think that relationships are prohibited because if two people are together, they can start connecting things and eventually form a plan. I think that the government thinks that if there are two people that are challenging the system, they will be harder to stop than only one person.
In 1984, just like in Fahreheit 451, the characters look at relationships more as a duty and something that they are forced into as opposed to something fun with their choice. In 451, Montag and his wife dont really get along at all, and they only speak to eachother when they have to. They also have very opposite views on almost everything, which causes more problems. In 1984, they also look at the relationships as just a rule to follow by the Party. If they werent forced to be married, i dont think that many would stay married.
This connection is only one of many I have made between 1984 and Fahrenheit 451. In both books, the relationship of marriage is more like being acquaintances. Mildred did not have love for Montag and vice versa. the same thing is seen between Kathrine and Winston. There is no love, they are simply together because that is how it is suppose to be. In 1984, the lack of relationship is not limited to marriage, they aren't truly even allowed to have friends, only comrades. I think the relationships are acquaintances, and that they truly are only made to make children as a "duty to the party". I also agree with whats been said that if relationships form, then ideas form. Strength in numbers.
Winston took such great measures to have the encounter with the prostitute for two reasons. One is the most obvious, simply for his own personal pleasure (yes I know that sounds wrong) and the second reason is for the rebellious factor. The Party puts such restrictions on sexual matters because sexual matters are an act of rebellion that could spark thought. The Party needs to keep everyone in their place. Winston's encounter with the prostitute only symbolizes his distaste for the Party.
I think that, just like 1984, relationships are just a extra part of their life that doesn't really matter. The only reason is to better the government. I also think that the Party puts such restrictions on sexual matters because it is just another way of controlling the future
The party probably tries to remove all feelings from it to further remove individuality, and to take further control over the people. It is one of the major things in life that they can remove to further humiliate the people. If you can't have a kid what good are you to humanity, you are nothing but loose baggage for someone to take care of.
Love is something that makes people happy. When people are happy they are more energized and think more. The Party feels taht if the people are happy and enjoy their companion's company and love then they will soon realize the corruption the government is creating.
The lack of relationships is caused by the government, but it also caused by the advancement in technology. Everyday people become less in touch because of technology.
Example of this would be the texting instead of calling someone, or myspace, e-mail. Yes, technology is very effective but it also is very disruptive.
As many people have already said, Winston and Katherine's relationship is very simialr to Montag and Mildred's relationship in 451. In both books it seems as if the only reason people are married is because they think the government wants them to. In both relationships, everyone is completely unhappy with their spouse and have different views towards many important issues. I also agrre with how Shauna said that relationships aren't allowed because of what could grow between the two people. It is much easier to cause chaos with another person by your side, making it much harder to get under control. I think the party wants the people to get married to keep the population growing, but does not want any really deep, meaningful relationships to start from their fear of rebellion.
I agree with Chels that in both F451 and 1984 relationships are seen more as mandatory or just means of reproduction. Today we see relationships as having fun.
It seems like Winston, and Montag in 451, are desperate for companionship. Because they are not brainwashed like most people in their societies, then they relize that they are slightly alone and that everyone needs love. Without compainoinship, people can become crazy and lonely. By restricting who can be with who, the party/ government can limit meetings and plots to overthrow the government; they are more capable of controlling the people. If they think that two people may want to conspire against the government, then they can prohibit them from getting married and thus inhibit them from meeting and working together against the government. It relates back to the theme of acomplices from last semester.
In both Fahrenheit 451 and 1984, marriage is just something couples o through. There is no love, just duty. I think that when Winston went to the prostitute, he was looking for something that wasn't his 'duty.'
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