LOF question ch 7-8 p.2
Consider the two main characters of Jack and Ralph. How are they similar and yet so different? What makes each so obsessed with being chief? why does Ralph feel the need to continue to hold onto the power and Jack so insistant that he become chief inspite of Ralph being elected? Evaluate their leadership styles.
posted by annes @ 9:17 AM
32 Comments:
Jack and Ralph are similar because they both want to get off the island and want whats best for the kids on the island. I think that Jack really wants to be cheif because he thinks that he can do a better job then Ralph can about keeping things running smoothly and everything. I think that Ralphs wants to stay cheif because he is afraid of being thrown out of postiton, that he wouldn't have any say if he was thrown out, and that Jack is to mean and about himself to do what is right for the community. I think that Jack also wants to prove that he is better and more mature then Raplh. Jack's leadership style is he is more about him self and what he wants then what the people want as a whole. Ralph likes to take the time and make sure he is doing the best for the community.
There are a couple main differences between Jack and Ralph. Jack seems way more immature and spastic, while Ralph acts mature and wise for his age. Jack is also an in your faced type of guy while Ralph is more laid back. They are similar becasue they both can lead people, but in different ways. They know they are the bosses and everyone else does too. Jack is also more cocky..i will finish this later class is over.
Ralph and Jack are really one and the same except for a few small differences. They are both born leaders. If not for the aid of the young boys, Jack would have been voted as leader. But I tink that Jack has more of a rebellious attitude than Ralph does. I beleive that if Jack had become leader, Raalph would not have gone out and tried to overthrow him. Ralph would have bent to authority easier because of his kinder personality. Overall, the only difference between the two is that Jack has a rebellious side that I have not seen in Ralph so far.
I agree with what everyone has said: that Ralph and Jack are both leaders. But, I also think that it can be inferred that both of them have had leadership positions in the past. Jack, we know, was the leader of the choir. I think that Ralph has had a leadership position because he has hinted at such a thing.
I don't fully agree with everyone on a couple of points. I don't think that Jack is thinking about getting off the island. I think he is so concerned with killing a pig and that blocks out everything else. He couldn't kill the pig the first time he had a chance, and I think that is still bothering him. I think that he won't think about anything else until he has killed a pig all by himself.
I also don't agree on the point joshb made. I think that if Jack had become leader, Ralph would have fought back. Especially if Jack had only concentrated on Hunting. I think that it is in Ralph's background to be a leader, because his dad was in the army.
I think Ralph is changing into an adult and can see that if the boys don't make longer term decisions, they will die on the island. He looks ahead and listens to Piggy, so he know that they might not get off the island for awhile, and he wants to live to get off the island.
Ralph's leadership style is more of what I think a leader should be. He looks ahead and is good at planning. He also so has his priorities sorted out.
Jack does not make a good leader, in my opinion because he doesn't plan, and only thinks about himself, as others have said. He also has too much ego, I think, to be a good leader. He doesn't let things go. They get in the way of his thinking.
I kind of have a different approach to this question than everyone else so far. I think that the main difference between the two is why they want to be in power coupled with the difference in maturity. I think that if Ralph had not been elected leader he would not have had any desire to be so, whereas Jack will always want to be leader no matter what happens. He is a born leader in a way but I think that he knows this and tries to take advantage of it. He wants to be leader for himself. He doesn't honestly care whether or not they are rescued and the children on the island really mean nothing to him. He wants power over them so that he can control them and continue to feel the power he feels when he kills the pig. Ralph, however, really feels that he has a responsibility as the leader to have the kids be rescued. He really cares for the children. His maturity also shows in how he treats and thinks of piggy. He sees him as an equal. Everyone else and especially Jack see him as a no good fat boy, while ralph sees through the appearance and into the reality of the fact that piggy has brains and can be of use.
I have referenced this in my post for ch. 4-6 but I still believe that Ralph and Jack are like father and son. This also references what Lane was saying about the maturity issue. Being more mature Ralph has the ability to see the whole picture and work for the good of the whole. Jack like teenagers tends to think only of himself and what will work best for him. I agree with the many on this blog have said they are both vying for chief and both think that they deserve it. However, this is where I deviate from their opinion, because I personally believe that Ralph is vying to stay in the position of control (like a father) and Jack is vying to become is control (like a son.)
I whether or not they are chief greatly infulence who they are. I think they both want to prove themselves. As chief, I beleive that Ralph wants to prove himself by controlling his group, making sure they do what he wants because what he wants is best. I think Jack also wants to prove himself, but wants to do so by showing his manliness and resolve, much like Macbeth. He feels he can show this by killing a pig. He does this, but then has to live down the shame of letting the fire go out.
I think that Golding wrote this book to show the primal nature of man, and that is expressed by why they want to be chief. They both want it for the power, the social dominance. Power feels good, and they want to feel like they are supreme. I think that is also why Ralph wants to hold on and Jack wants to take it. Jack feels defeated, and Ralph doesn't want to.
I think leadership wise, Ralph tries to use more leadership and convincing, as well as the fact that he has the conch. I think that since Jack feels he has the lower hand, he feels the need to use more brute force and intimidation tactics, because he is older too.
Jack is power hungry. He wants to be cheif and has become obsessed with hunting. He wants to dominate and wants to prove to the world that he is the best. He doesn't like it when people don't agree with him and when he is not the one always right or the one in power.
Ralph is the popular one. He has the power and plans to keep it that way. He thinks that his plan is this one that will work best for everyone on the island and will get them all home sooner. Ralph is more of a stronger person inside. He can hold his anger a little more easily than Jack, and although he does explode, his temper usually remains calm. I agree with paige that Ralph is more of a short term thinker. I also think that he's not willing to accept that they might actually be on that island for a while.
The thing that make both Jack and Ralph want to be cheif is their need to have the power. They have trouble accepting that someone else is greater. Jack seems just like the type that is power hungry, but Ralph seems to me like he's trying to fill in space. I remember reading that he was sent off to school, so maybe he's trying to fill in the pain of not being able to see his family and grow up on his own.
I agree with what just about everyone has said so far. I think Jack and Ralph are almost opposites in their leadership styles, and they are both hungry for power, just for different reasons. Ralph wants power because he believes that he is the only one (with the possible exception of Piggy) capable of getting them off the island in a civilized manner, and Jack just likes the rush of being the leader. I think Jack doesn't really care that Ralph was elected, and he thinks the rest of the group made a bad decision by electing him. He has a charismatic personality that seems to have drawn people to him from Ralph, and the boys are probably more attracted to him towards the end because he has a more authoritative rule and seems like a stronger leader. They want to go home, and I think they think his strength will accomplish that for them. Ralph just wants to do things right. He hadn't started really thinking things through until Piggy showed him how, and he uses logic instead of sheer power to lead. He also craves tradition and order. On another note, I think he has matured a great bit during his stay on the island.
I agree with adamb in that Jack and Ralph are similar because they both are leaders. They both have strong opinions about how the boys on the island should live. Jack and Ralph are different because Ralph believes in doing what is best for the group and being fair. Although Ralph is chief, he gives others the chance to share their ideas. Jack on the other hand is a one-man show. If he is given power he is in absolute control, almost like a dictator. Jack is obsessed with being chief because he lives for power. To Jack, their is no such thing as a team, only a leader and the people who sever him. Ralph, on the other hand is obsessed with being chief because it is his responsibility and he was chosen. He does not want to fail the boys.
Ralph and Jack are both similar in that they want to have the power to be a leader. Ralph was elected leader and wants to stay that leader. I don't think that he thinks it's fair that he was elected and then everyone left him to go to Jack's group. I wouldn't like that either, but I think that he needs to accept that he has no power over all the children. Jack took over and said how they all would have fun and hunt to survive. Ralph thinks they need certian things to survive but they really need to have a fire going so that they can keep a signal going for ships passing by to see. I'm not sure why they both have the obsession to be in charge, but this would be the same as asking Macbeth why he wanted power so bad also. I think it was just a thing that they both wanted.
Ralph had a leadership style that he wasn't in control of. I think that he let other people tell him what to do and he never had any ideas to share with anyone until Jack had and influence over the children.
Jack is more like a dictator that really wants the charge and is going to make you do it if you like it or not. He has a "his way or the highway" idea going on. The sad part is that he will probably get more people to do what he wants and that's how he got people to follow him and do what he wants. Jack also does alot of talking about himself and his tribe. I think this is also part of his style.
I don't think ralph as thirst for so much as just wanting to be orginized and eventually get rescued off the island. Jack however, wants people to listen to him because the choit r always has, so he is used to it. Jack doesn't really care about being rescued so juch as a having fun and aving power.
Jack and Ralph have the common characteristic that they are both natural born leaders. Like Adam and Hannah have said earlier, they are different mostly in the way they rule. Jack leads in a form of brute strength, intimidation, persuasion, and chaos. Ralph leads for the well being of the people. Ralph is partially obsessed with being chief because he knows he cannot allow Jack to become leader because Jack would not lead them towards being rescued which is the ultimate goal of the group of boys. I think Jack is obsessed with becoming leader because his outlook on their situation is to have fun and hunt, and to Ralph, the present leader, that is not what is most important. I think Jack also wants to lead because he was the leader of the choir boys and isn't used to someone else telling him what to do.
Ralph feels he must hold on to power because if he doesn't there will be mass chaos on the island. The way Jack wants to rule is a recipe for failure. Jack is not practical and does not think things through. Ralph knows what is important to their survival and he is going to institute that. Jack wants to have fun, and that will result in them not being rescued. Ralph, once again, is ruling for the well being of the people, NOT for the well being of himself like Jack is. Jack is so insistent to become chief because once again he is not use to someone else pushing him around. Jack lives for Jack. He doesn't care about anything else but himself. The styles of leadership can be related to a democracy and a anarchy. Ralph listens to the people, and does things for the people, and institutes rules to help the people. Jack wants fun, and with fun will come total chaos.
Even though jack and Ralph both want to be leaders, there leardership styles are very different. i think Ralph only thinks of what he will benefit from it and he doesn't focus on the big problems and ideas as much as jack does. i think they would both be greedy leaders and that one isn't better than the other. Jack is so obsessed with being a leader because that is what he is used to(like the choir for example) Jack doesn't like being ordered around but rather be the one to order. Ralph is so obsessed with being leader because he thinks he knows exactly what needs to be done and enjoys telling people what to do rather than what he is used to which is being ordered around. Ralph and Jack are very similar being that they both want to be leaders. They both seem very greedy and only consider what they will benefit from the matter, not everyone. they don't think of what is best for everyone. Ralph would rather have everyone watching the fire and building shelters and things like that. Jack would rather everyone to go out and hunt for meat and food, which is more important to him unlike Ralph who favors the shelters and fires more than meat. Jack is more willing and impressed by killing than Ralph is. It seems that Ralph doesn't want everyone to know what he eally feels inside and that he wants to act all powerful and strong, but i think inside Ralph hates the fact of killing and is all soft inside.
While reading today, I reached a point of enlightenment on them. To me they both signify the two main parties that are in each and every style of government. One is extremely military based while the other had different intrests.
Jack is deffinately a dictator. I am trying to narrow it down to WHICH dictator Jack is most like. Is he like Hitler, or some other dictators?? I should do some research in that area...
Jack and Ralph are so different, yet they both want the same thing: to be chief. I see Ralph as the protagonist, and Jack as the antagonist. I think this because Ralph is thinking about what would benefit the boys on the island the most if he were chief, where as Jack is the opposite. Jack wants to be chief just to be chief, to say that he is better than everyone else. Their leadership styles are also very different. Ralph is more about what is best to survive, and what is in benefit if the whole community. Jack is more focused on himself, and just wants to have that reassurance that he is better than everyone else.
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Jack and Ralph have different ways of leading, but like others said they are power hungry. Ralph is more of the go with the flow kind of guy where as Jack is I'm the leader listen to me, but both of them don't really think about what they do before they do it. I think they are so obsessed about being cheif because Jack feels that he would and will be a better leader, where Ralph is just there to help if it is needed and Jack thinks that they need to listen to him, because like (Sara M. said) is "going to make things happen". The way they lead is more for their well being and staus, but the way they show their emotions of power is very different. I think it is important to know that they are both wanting the power even though Ralph was elected, they have a little bit of jelousy on both ends of the string.
I think process of elimination is a major recurring theme in this book. It is also inherent in both of their leadership styles. When there is nothing left to do, they do the one thing that is left. That is natural, of course, but ties in with the process of elimination in the rest of the book.
Ralph and Jack seem to have different values in what is important, and that seems to be one source of their arguments and why both want to be cheif. Ralph wants order and rescue, while Jack mainly wants to hunt. They both also like the respect and attention it gets them when they are cheif.
Jack seems to be the type of leader who gains that sort of respect by being tough and like a bully towards others. Ralph seems to be one who seems tough and out going, but not in the same way as Jack. Ralph gives off the feeling that he is smart and has a good bit of common sense. He also seems knid, but not touchy-feely. He is still tough. He has charisma.
Ralph is afraid that if Jack gets to be cheif, then the order and rules that he installed won't be continued with and Jack would get out of control.
I think that Ralph wants to be the cheif because he feels the need to keep the fire going so that they can be rescued. Jack thinks that the most important thing is to have fun. I think that the way that the two boys are different in terms of their leadership styles is that Ralph thinks about how they are going to get rescued and that the most important thing is the fire so that they will get rescued. Jack doesn't think about how they will get rescued, he just assumes that eventually someone will find them, so he wants to have fun while they are there.
Jack and Ralph are similar because they both really like power and really want leadership. I don't think that they really have very many differences. I suppose that they calsh together so much because how they both want the same thing, and that makes them different.Ralph needs the power to stay in control and be in his "element." Ralph needs to be the head so that he can make sure that everything can go the way that he wants it to go. Jack is also striving for that power because he, like Ralph, really likes to be in control. Ralph is definately more demanding when it comes to leadership, and it seems that Jack is more rebellious and "challenging the system" type. Jack seems to go the opposite direction of what people tells him to do becuase he likes it his way. Ralph on the other hand, likes to run things in an orderly fashion.
Jack and Ralph are similar because they both really like power and really want leadership. I don't think that they really have very many differences. I suppose that they calsh together so much because how they both want the same thing, and that makes them different.Ralph needs the power to stay in control and be in his "element." Ralph needs to be the head so that he can make sure that everything can go the way that he wants it to go. Jack is also striving for that power because he, like Ralph, really likes to be in control. Ralph is definately more demanding when it comes to leadership, and it seems that Jack is more rebellious and "challenging the system" type. Jack seems to go the opposite direction of what people tells him to do becuase he likes it his way. Ralph on the other hand, likes to run things in an orderly fashion.
Both jack and Ralph are similar in that they are the older boys of the group that emerge as leaders. I think that Ralph is obsessed with being chief because he wants to influence the group of boys. He wants to make sure everything goes the way he wants it to go, like shauna m said. He wants to be able to make the boys keep the fire going in case of a ship or plane. Jack on the other hand, just seems to like power because he is looked up to and likes to be the one to set the rules and be followed.
I think Ralph feels he needs to hold on to his position as chief because he feels that the way Jack would lead the group of boys is in the wrong direction. Ralph wants to keep the boys focused on rescue, while Jack is focused on hunting and staying on the island. I think that Jack is so insistant that he become chief because he is jealous of the respect and power that Ralph has. He wants to be the one followed and respected as a leader who can make decisions.
Jack and Ralph are very similar because of their personalities. Both of them have a natural instinct be a leader and make the decisions. Ralph feels the need to hold onto the leadership power and Jack is so insistant on becoming chief for essentially the same reason--both want to be in control of the group of boys, and they know that whomever the chief is, that is to whom the group will listen to and respond to their orders. Both boys are strong leaders, however, they have different motives and desires, which then creates a difference in how they lead. Ralph really wants to be rescued off of the island, so he tells the group of boys to do things that will promote their chances of being rescued. A different way of stating it is that Ralph thinks about the future and the best thing for the boys in the long run. Jack, however, tries to lead the boys in a way to do good for them in the present, while they are on the island. Although different, both leading styles are benificial, but also interfere with the other. If they both combined their ideas, the boys probably would have found a way to be rescued and to sustain themselves in the meantime in a more efficient manner.
Both Jack and Ralph are very similar when it comes to their personalities. They both are ambitious. Ralph shows this when Jack tries to challenged him as cheif. Ralph being cheif is determined to keep his power and JAck is equaly determined to take that away from Ralph. They also are both one track minded. Ralph always is thinking about being rescued, and Jack has become OBSESSED with hunting. IT's all he can think about!! When these two characters want something they go after it no matter what.
Jack and Ralph are similar in that they are both very able to convince people early on. As the novel progresses, we see that Jack gains more control over the boys as the "beastie" grows more terrible. Ralph feels he must be cheif because he sees that the group must remain civilized in order to survive. Jack simply want to be leader for the sake of being leader. Jack uses his own form of terrorism and propaganda to instill fear in the littuns.
I agree with aylar in that Jack and Ralph are both extemely ambitious and like-minded. I think that they argue so much because of these similarites and if they were complete opposites, they would get along easier.
Ralph feels he needs to hold on to power because if he doesn't, then Jack will take over, forget about the fire, and they would never be rescued. Jack is just obesessed with having a good time, and is mad at Ralph for getting in his way.
I believe that they both are very much leaders. Neither are really good, but they're definately not shy. I think that Jack is a little to overbearing, and Ralph sees that. Ralph acts like he knows what's good for the group(tribe?). However, Jack seems to just want to be the leader and tell everyone what to do and that everything should be done his way.
Jack and Ralph are similar in that they are both strong leaders. Ralph gets chosen to be the cheif at the beginning of the book and he makes good rules for the boys to follow. And, it's the same with Jack. He can hunt and so he takes a leadership role with some of the boys because he can get meat. I think they both want to be cheif because they both have this leadership ability and they enjoy being in a place of power of the others. Ralph holds onto his power probably because he has some doubts about Jack and how he would lead the boys. Honestly, I don't understand why Jack wants to be cheif after Ralph was elected to be it. I guess he just wants to either try it out, or he's very power hungry and is getting jealous of Ralph because he gets to make all the rules and expectations.
Well, apparently I missed the chance to blog on this for a grade, due simply to the fact that I had no idea that it was here, so I will blog on it now. In leadership styles, Ralph and Jack are very different. Ralph believes more in sense and order. This can make him and his ideas a bit less appealing to the boys. Jack is more interested in fun, and to the boys, he represents something other than human- and one can argue that he is inhuman.
I didn't blog on this because I blogged on it, but it didn't get through, and just realized it. So here goes:
Jack and Ralph are similar in the way that they both want to be in charge of the other boys on the island. They are different in the way that they hold a crowds' attention. Ralph gives his ideas and then sees what the other boys think of them. Jack forces his ideas on the others, automatically thinking that they are the only good ideas. Both are obsessed with being chief because they think they know what is best for the group, and being older than the others, they have that sense of control. After Jack insists that he is chief despite Ralph's election, Ralph wants to still keep his power because he doesn't agree with Jack's way of going about his business. He thinks that Jack is too forceful. Ralph wants what is best for everyone and the quickest way that they will be rescued from the island.
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