Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 9:38 AM
I think that the role changes that have happened between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth are very interesting. I know that several people thought that they might switch roles back once Macbeth started to bo in danger, but I never expected him to go the other way! The gap in personalities between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth has grown wider and wider, and now, their characters are almost unrecognizable from the characters they were at the beginning of the play.
One interesting part of Act V that caught my eye was when the gentlewoman said that Lady Macbeth didn't go to bed without a light still on. I thought this was interestin because, as we discussed in class, darkness seems to represent evil. All the murder and conspiracy happens at night. Maybe she is afraid of the evil coming to "get her" if she tunrs out the lights.
Great idea about darkness Sarah! That is such a great point! In Act 5, Lady Macbeth is afraid of the dark with all the murders and it keeps her from being comfortable in her own home. In LOTF, the boys are afraid of the beast. The beast is out there, lurking in the forest and they don't know how to get rid of it, so they hunt and hunt, and there's no result. That is like Lady Macbeth as she washes her hands to rid her of her guilt, but it does no good.
Along with the change of roles of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, I think that some of the things Macbeth says in scene III are very interesting, "I cannot taint with fear. What's the boy Malcolm? Was he not born of woman? The spirits that know All mortal consequences have pronounced me thus: 'Fear not, Macbeth; no man that's born of woman Shall e'er have power upon thee.'" Macbeth has become very arrogant because of the witches prophecy, and believes he has nothing to fear as opposed to the beginning of Macbeth when he is very unsure and cautious. I think that all the killing he has committed has greatly changed him and that each time he plots to murder someone, it is just easier for him to follow through with it. Although he is much more confident and sure of himself, he still questions the witches prophecy stating that Malcolm was born of woman and could not harm him. Because Macbeth acts this way, his men, servants, and even doctor who is caring for his wife say that if they could they would help Malcolm and Macduff and question their loyalty toward Macbeth.
I think that there is a connenction between the role changes of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth and the spilt of Jack and Ralph. While it was clear that Jack and Ralph didn't care for each other, I didn't expect them to try to hurt people they didn't agree with. And while Lady Macbeth and Macbeth were bound to have a role reversal, I didn't expect such a drastic one. I think in both cases each author went well beyond what the reader was expecting and into the realm of the extreme
The downfall of someone who tries to maintain a sense of pride is evident in Lady Macbeths' case. She went from being a confident person and an encourager of Macbeths' wrong doing to showing remorse and guilt to the point she can no longer sleep. Macbeth made a complete change in himself turning from hesitant to arrogant just like his wife in the beginning.I think Jack is somewhat like Macbeth. Once he has spilled blood he cannot stop, he is blood thirsty and loses sight of what is important.
I totally agree with sarahc and kjerstinl! It is quite evident that Lady Macbeth is afraid of the dark and the evil that is associated with it, just as the boys in LOF were afraid of the beast. What I'm wondering is, are they really afraid of the dark and the beast, or the evil that they know exists inside of them? Are they afraid that this evil is going to come out in a way that it shouldn't and that is why they are afraid of the dark and beast? I definitely think that this is possible, and is the case. Also, Macbeth is gone when Lady Macbeth is sleep walking. I believe that her sleep walking is her way of expressing her fear that Macbeth is going to go do something stupid and blow their cover from the previous murders. Guilt and fear is building up in Lady Macbeth, and these are traits of tragic heroes. Are her weird actions foreshadowing what is in store for herself and quite possibly Macbeth?
I really like how both Macbeth and William Golding use the symbolism of darkness in both or their books. It obviously resembles evilness, hatred, revenge, and guilt.I really like what kjerstinl said about her connection to LOF and Lady Macbeth and how she is trying to wash her hands to take away the guilt.What if the Doctor and the Gentlewoman reveal all that Lady Macbeth is saying? When Lady Macbeth awakens from her sleep will she know what she has said? If someone tells her, will she flee?
The main connection that I saw in the latter chapters of MAcbeth and LOF was death. It seems as though it won't ever stop. It seems that with each murder and each death it becomes easier for the human mind to think of the next time it will kill. I see guilt rising in both Jack and Lady MAcbeth they know what they've done is wrong but are unwilling to change their ways.Each character will break down at some point. Were already beginning to see that through LAdy MAcbeth. Her guilt has rose to breaking point.
I thought that the second scene was really setting up the witches prophecy. Macbeth's enemies are in Birnham Wood. I wonder if they will use the trees to make some sort of seige weapon and take them up to dunsinane hill.shaunam: I don't think lady macbeth knows what she is saying.
In scene one, we see that the guilt has finally caught up to Lady Macbeth and is controlling her in her life. She sleep walks and she is almost going insane. Just like Macbeth did earlier, she talks about things no one can see or hear, and people are worried about her mental state. If this continues, she is going to slip up and give out some important information. I also saw a connection between this scene and LOF. When they first kill Simon, the boys try to tell themselves that it was an accident or that it wasn’t Simon it was the beast just to rid themselves of the guilt of what they have done. They are blaming something else to rid themselves of their own guilt. It is human nature to point fingers. But have they really washed the blood from their hands? You could wash your hands for 20 years, and it still wouldn’t rid you of the blood spilt if you killed someone. That is a crime that will stay with you forever, and nothing can change it; you can’t bring someone back to life. And, like Ralph and Piggy said, they were on the outside and didn’t really take part in killing Simon. Did Lady Macbeth really kill anyone? But does she still feel the guilt? Do the boys still feel the guilt? INTERESTING.
I think that Act V is one of the more understandable acts so far in the play. I really don't have any questions except for the fact that I tend to confuse Dunsinane and Birnam Wood. Would someone explain the difference to me? A fairly obvious connection that I made between LOF and Macbeth was the fact that they both consist of a main external conflict in which two groups try to kill each other over difference of oppinion. The conflicts both dig right to the root of human behavior. The main characters in each show both the most evil characteristics of man and the best characteristics. The two groups symbolize the conflicts good vs. evil, day vs. night and right vs. wrong.
karib: I think that Birnam Wood is just the forest near Macbeth's castle. Dunsisnane Hill is where Macbeth's castle is located. This is described on page 122 in the book.I agree with what everyone has said. In class today we discussed how everything bad that happens in both LOF and in Macbeth happens at night, symbolizing the evilness of the night. One thing that I observed was that at night we tend to imagine things to be threats that really won't harm us. For instance, we are afraid of creepy shadows or noises. Is this what happens in LOF and in Macbeth? In LOF we find out that the "beastie" is not actually a living thing that could harm anyone. The night does not actually harm anyone in Macbeth. The point I'm trying to make is that Macbeth saw Banquo as a threat when really, Banquo showed no sign of wanting to take the crown away from Macbeth. Jack saw Ralph as a threat even though Ralph did not intentionally do anything to make Jack feel threatened. I think that in both stories the characters were afraid of harmless shadows in the dark that could not hurt them.
Along with Benh, I think that Macbeth's enemies will use Birnum Wood to their advantage. The witches seem like their deceitfulness could have something to do with this. Maybe when they said that Macbeth would rule until the Birnum Wood moved up Dunsinane Hill they really meant that his enemies would come to overthrow him out of Birnum Wood.
I think that Macbeth has become very cocky in this Act. Why does he think that there is not even the posibility that he will be killed in battle. The role between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth have really changed from the begining of the book up to preparing for the battle. At first Lady Macbeth was in charge of what was going to happen and showed hardly any emoition, while Macbeth was intimidated by Lady Macbeth and was the one with the conscious. At first Lady Macbeth told Macbeth to see and that everything would be fine when he woke up, now she is the one that cannot sleep and her worries have finally caught up with her.
Macbeth has grown in becoming a very confident, over-bearing man. The apparitions told him that no woman born will be able to harm him. He now doesn't have to worry about Malcolm, Macduff, and anyone else that stands in his way. But, when Macbeth finally begins to fall it can only be a bad thing. This also relates to LOF. Ralph was chief for a large portion of the book, but, I think that people began to find him using his power a little to much; to personal benefit, and he too began to fall. He ends the story almost being hunted down and killed by his fellow peers. He sank from the highest power to the extreme low. I wonder if the same will happen for Macbeth, I really think that it will.
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Ok you guys, there is something happening here that I have just become aware of and I think you should be too. Sorry to be off topic, but here is a post from Will."TIME OUT! TIME OUT! TIME OUT! TIME OUT! TIME OUT! TIME OUT!Hope I got your attention, this is very IMPORTANT.I have an URGENT message. Today in AP Gov, Meyer brought up a very interesting bill called the DELETING ONLINE PREDATORS BILL, despite the nice title, the bill will destroy what we and the Arapahoe High School staff have attempted to create. Please research this bill. The gist of the bill is that all access to chat rooms, BLOGS, myspace,and perhaps even simpler pages that might allow students to display any kind of personal information will be denied to students.This bill will be extremely detrimental to the education, will destroy everything we have worked hard to establish, and eliminate the benefits to internet in the classroom that many of you enjoy. THIS BILL PASSED IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES BY A VOTE OF 410-15. Our time window is incredibly short to take any kind of action against this bill before it is passed by the Senate and it WILL be passed. We must take action now, IF THERE IS A WAY TO ORGANIZE A MEETING FOR CONCERNED STUDENTS I WOULD BE GRACIOUS FOR INFORMATION ON HOW TO GET A ROOM AND ANNOUNCEMENTS.Any strategies on how not to get this bill passed would be greatly appreciated, I have a few, but I would prefer one in which I don't have to be suspended or expelled :)."Here is a good link to learn about the bill.Deleting Online Predators Act of 2006Hope you don't mind me adding this here, Smith, but I think it is a worthy cause. In the future there may not be a "here."To join the discussion, go to the learning and laptops blog.
I think that, although Macbeth has several character flaws, he is making a critical error in no worrying about the advancing army. He is very cocky and like jessb said, he is becoming very overconfident and it is almos annoying.
hannahs, I think that that is what the witches wanted. Maybe they summoned the apparitions to lure Macbeth in to a false sense of security. I think that it is possible that what the apparitions said was true, but they either only told part of the truth or twisted it so that they wouldn't be lying, but Macbeth would think he was invincible. Maybe that will be the trait that leads to his tragic hero downfall. I agree with what you said about the advancing army. That will probably play a role in his demise. Your post made me think of LOF. Jack became overconfident after he betrayed the former leader, Ralph, and started his own tribe of "savages." Jack's tribe is like Macbeth's. Macbeth killed the king, but the country suffered under is rule. Jack's tribe definitely is not a utopia. Everyone probably fears Roger and Jack. They already beat one boy for no obvious reason. Ralph, however, is different from Malcolm because he doesn't fight back. In a way, he realizes that blood will have blood and he wants it to end, more like Lady Macbeth. There was a part where Ralph was wishing he could just walk in to the enemy camp and ask for peace because he was so tired. Earlier in the book, he thought of surrendering his leadership, but Piggy and Simon convinced him to fight. They were like Lady Macbeth convincing her husband to kill. Part of the reason they wanted him to go on beng cheif was that he would look after them. I thought this seemed like Lady Macbeth wanting to be queen.
I agree with most people that Macbeth has become cocky. He definitely thinks he is becoming all important and maybe even God-like. However, I also think that now that he feels he has this power he has to do everything he possibly can to hold on to that power. What I really would like to know is how far he will end up going in the end and what will be his final downfall. I have some ideas and I'm really excited to finish the book.
Ok. I really want to know what happened to Fleance. Won't Banquo get kings? Fleance never came back.
While reading scene 5, I made the same connection that briang did. In LOF, they boys killed someone, and then tried to cover up for it and fix their guilt. This is what exactly what happened in Macbeth. When Macbeth killed Duncan and Banquo he had so much guilt come upon him that he couldn’t think about anything else. Smith in class mentioned that both Shakespeare and Golding used night as a symbol of evil. I had never thought about this before, but after she said this I did think about it. Both authors used night as a symbol of evil, and all of the murders and acts of evil happened at night. I think that the authors were trying to get the point across that bad things happen always at night. You need to watch your back at night, and trust no one. I also think that the role changes between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth are similar to that of Jack and Ralph. They both switch between being leader and telling the other what to do and being pushed back and taking second at lead.
I'm not quite sure If I understand Act 5, Scene 3... I don't really know what happens.
Oh yeah, Ben. I forgot about Fleance. Maybe Banquo's part of the prophecy really never does come true, like he always warned about how the witches can't be trusted. Odd, that none of Banquo's prophecies except the part about him never being king came true, and all his best friend's prophecies cames true. I wonder what that symbolizes there.
What I have really been wondering this entire play is whether or not the witches prophecies are really accurate... maybe they jsut happen to think that all these things are going to happen so they let Macbeth know of them to how would you say "fuel the fire" the fire being Macbeth's ambition of becoming king and keeping his place as king. The witches knew of Macbeth and his skills maybe they just plopped the idea into his head to toy with him creat chaos, and make the entire country under peril with this unsteady man as the king.
One thing that I don't get is the importance of the sence with Angus and all the new characters. Also did Macbeth tell Macduff that he couldn't be killed by anyone born by a women and then Macduff said he wasn't or did Macbeth find out someother way.
A connection between Lord of the Flies and Macbeth is that is Lord of the Flies Jack and his group cut off the head of the pig that they killed and placed it on a stake to symbolize evil and power. In Macbeth, Macduff cut off macbeth's head and carried it into the scene to also symbolize power and evil. Many of the same techniques used to symbolize power in Lord of the Flies were also used in Macbeth in the same way throughout the play.
I like the way that Shakespeare found a way to make the witches' riddles come true. I think it means that sometimes the least expected thing can happen and catch you totally off guard. When Macbeth found out that Birnam wood was moving toward his castle, he was scared. When he found out that Macduff isn't technically born of a woman, that threw him off the edge. A key way to be sure that you don't get suddenly and unexpectedly overthrown is to consider the implications of everything everyone says, always be on you guard, and expect the unexpected to come your way. That is the key to challenging the system. And if you're trying to challenge the system by damaging someone else, do something they'll ñever expect.
kimmyc, I liked yoor idea about the witches not really telling the truth. I think it is possible they knew that the prophecies would come true only if Macbeth heard them and got the ideas about becoming king. If there was no one to hear them, the prophecies might have never come true. Back to the thing about Banquo. Maybe Fleance will become king. If he heard the prophecy, he might try to do exactly the same thing Macbeth did. Or he might decide on his own because of suspucions about who wanted him dead, or just because people naturally want power.
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