Fahrenheit 451 Fishbowl 68-91 period 2
posted by annes @ 8:27 AM
Smith's 9th Honors Class Blog
Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
Contributors
- elyseh
- Kjerstinl
- Adriana
- Karl Fisch
- HarryPotterFreak(danh)
- shaunam
- Unknown
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- Alex_Manning
- Anoel
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- Kim C. 2010
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- Tom
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- Hannah J
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- emilya
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- sarahc
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- krump
- Alexaaaaa
- Dan
- Declan "Danger"
- tanal
- adamb
- Lisa Madsen Crellin
- endsleye
- TyC
- Shelby B.
- Unknown
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- Unknown
- saram
- Aylar
- EmilyH
- Laurab
- hannahs
- alexd
- Phillip
- zachf
- michelleg
- chelseah
- lindsey c
- KathrynT
- Kaity
- Shelbyb-mom
- paigen
Previous Posts
- Mr. Murphy's questions
- Wonder Woman Gone Country
- Fahrenheit 451 Live Blogging 40-68 period 5
- Fahrenheit 451 Live Blogging 40-68 period 2
- Fahrenheit 451 Live Blogging 25-40 period 5
- Fahrenheit 451 Live Blogging 25-40 period 2
- 451 Discussion 1-24 period 5
- 451 Discussion 1-24 period 2
- Censorship
- Reaction to live blogging and aquarium discussion
136 Comments:
Hi,
Just wanted you to know I'll be looking over your shoulder today. I stumbled across this and wanted to observe your process. Mr. F sent me the link.
Pat
okay so i was kind kof confused when Montag was talking about the lillies and Denham's do you think you guys could help me out?
Can someone please explain the sand and the sieve passage. I was lost.
Hi Pat,
Have fun!!!! Thanks for watching us!
Thanks for joining us, Pat! Enjoy!
~Chelsea H.
kjerstinl...do you mean the symbolism or what we read about?
Well at the end, didn't Faber said that he woulod help Montag out? Because Montag started ripping pages out of the Bible to blackmail Faber. So they ARE working together, only Faber isn't the one that is in the action, Montag is.
well, isn't Faber really the coward since he wasn't going with Montag because he was too scared?
Symbolism
Tana-- ditto. What did the lillies mean/represent? What was he talking about? I think that the Denham thing was just the subway intercom talkin about advertisments and where they were.
oh i get it thank you so much for the help adriana i didn't realize the Denham was the radio and lilie was from the bible.
People know about Faber's past though, so people would suspect him more in the first place.
kjerstinl: the seive and the sand passage is sybolizing Montags attemps to retain as much information from the Bible as possible in the shortest amount of time. The sand is the information that is sliding thru his seive like brain. He used the example that his cousin taunted him by promising a dime if he could fill a seive with sand... an impossible task.
kathryn~ then why was Montag trying to memorize it?
kathryn~ you are right, the Denham thing was just a radio station with advertisments... read up a little, adrianna left a comment explaining it.
oh! thanks adrianag
kjerstinl
a sieve is like a strainer that you cook with. You put sand into it and all the small pieces for through and the bigger pieces are left. It is used so you can find shells or something. I thought that Montag was like the sieve and the books were the sand cause he was trying to sort them out to see if there was anything in them.
tana-i think that the Denham's dentifrice is supposed to be a distraction for the people who are on the subway. when Montag is trying to "consider the lilies of the field" he's trying to think of other things besides this annoying advirtisement being played over and over again.
shauna~ montag was trying to memorize the bible, before he had to burn it, so that he could expand his knowledge, and undertsand it better. does that help?
Shauna montag was trying to memorize the bible but the intercom kept saying Denham and it was making it hard for him to memorize the bible. Adriana explains it if yoou scroll up a little bit
Thanks chelseah!!!
Ok...so my book is a different copy than all of yours, so my page numbers are all different. I sat down and read the entire book yesterday afternoon, so could somone tell me what happened when this section started and ended? thanx
adam-I think that it is talking about the mechanical hound because it says stuff about 'electric breath' and the only thing that would resemble that would be the hound.
jess b- I think that he can change the world, but he can't do it by himself-maybe he'll slowly convince them. But seeing as the community did this to itself, it may not be possible.
Montag thinks that he has nothing left to lose. He has a job he doesn't like that destorys the things that he's realized is so important, and he has a wife that doesn't really care. What else can Montag lose? He's showed he's willing to give up his life for the books.
Kjerstin-- He was comparing that memory of the seive and the sand to reading the books. He can keep reading all he wants, but the faster he reads, the less he understands. He doesn't understand them and he doesn't have the background knowledge. So when he reads, it all falls through and he doesn't retain all the knowledge, or really any at all.
hannahj, so what does the hound symbolize? Why is it at Montag's door?
I dont think that Faber is a coward because he is not afraid of helping Montag or of getting killed for having the books. Faber probably has an interesting and dark past that has to do mainly with books and the government.
i agree with hannahj. Also we haven't really heard of any other kind of animal except for The Hound.
jess~ Montag thinks he can change the world, because he has started reading all these books, and talking to Clarisse. He is getting a bit carried away. He is really excited, and truly beieves that if everyone saw what he say, and the possibilites of being different, then the world could be changed.
I think that the Hound sniffs out books and he has such a good sense of smell, that he can smell the books that are behind the door.
and that's why in the beginning of the book, he growls at Montag because he can smell the books on him.
I think that the dog represents danger because he knows about the books and how far could he get if he actually came into the house?
I think that Montag is seeing the truth in the world for the first time, and it came at him too fast. I'm also confused on when he first met Faber...why did that happen? ANNAW- the hound is there at Beattys request...it is foreshadowing something I will not say. Mildred and Montag met in Chicago.
Faber was a coward throughout his whole life because he was scared of helping everyone because he thought he would be caught. He finally became courageous when he showed Montag the radio
Josh,
I think that Faber is a coward because he amitted to it and also he said that he was scared of people so he had not talked to anyone since the time Montag and him met at the park.
i agree with Kjerstin i think the only thing that Montag can lose now is all of the books or even his life because he owns books, bu t like you said he already puts himself before books
I agree with chelseah. Montag may b getting a bit cariied away, but I also think that if people see a fireman that is intellectual, they may think it is ok and try themselves. Montag can't change the world on his own but he may sort of inspire other people to.
elyse-well can the hound really talk? how could he tell the other firemen about Montag?
There are plenty of animals, however they are illegal and persecuted BY the Hound. Beatty and the other firemen set the chemical balances to mice and rats just for fun...
I'm wondering also, what special ability does the hound have? why did he just show up at Montag's door?
On page 72, Montag talks about how the books are important and how the books "point, one way or another, to Clarisse." How is this true? WHat is it about the books and Clarisse that is so significant? HOw might Clarisse contain important information about the past and what is missing in the world? How is this the same with books?
chelsea-I think that the hound has a superior sense of smell just like actual dogs. he can smell books in big numbers and he helps to sniff them out when alarms aren't reported.
chelseah~
I think maybe as hannahj said, that the hound has the ability to smell books, just like dalmations are trained to sniff out smoke.
Does that help?
Also, is there only ONE hound? Or are there several?
declan, I agree with you but I also think that he is losing his mind a little bit, just like what happened it LOF and Macbeth. Jack kinda lost control and they turned into savages in LOF. And then in Macbeth, Macbeth went crazy with the guilt of killing and also the rush of gaining power. I think Montag is on the same road.
There must be others besides Montag and Clarrise (RIP) and Faber...he even says so. I wonder...
Ya.. thanks shauna!
chelseah-
The hound recognizes enzymes and chemicals in wantd people's blood. The hound can track down anyone by sensing these cemicals.
Chelsea kind of what other people have said i think that the hound can smell the scent of books on Montag so he just showed up at his door. Also maybe the people at the firestation programed the hound to find Montag or to go through the town and sniff out the people who have books
Endsley,
Faber may be somewhat of a coward, but him admitting it, I think, is kind of an excuse. He is hiding something and I think that at some time he was a rebellious person. Inside of himself, I am not sure if he is really brave or cowardly. You may be right, we will see.
He would be happy to die with a purpose now instead of living without a purpose or emotion.
its funny how everyone in the books we've read, someone has a mid-life crisis. Ralph has his sped up by being on an island with only guys for company. Macbeth completely loses it, and Guy is well on his way
Ignorance is bliss-
-Anonymous
alexm~ i think that there must be other people like clarisee, montag, and faber. I think that they are just to afraid to speak up, and stand out.
ya i agree with alex
Do you think the government wants peace or control???
alexm~ good connection, i never would have thought of that!
Yea Declan you are right. Montag, now that he has discovered books, he is kind of going crazy. I think that this is going to lead to him getting caught or something worse...
Connor- I'm not sure that Montag has a had a reason to live for long enough for him to want to die for.
kimmyc-I think that he has slowly gone nuts-and is definately going to explode soon...
connor~
I think that the government wants peace but in the process they are gaining alot of control.
Montag hasnt become crazy quite yrt. He just completely hates the society and that is driving him nuts.
connor,
Im not sure what the government wants because it hasn't really been brought up in the book except the burning books fact.
kimmy c-I don't think that Montag is crazy, at least he wouldn't be in today's society. in the book's society, he probably is seen as crazy since he wonders about books and thinks about how things used to be and wonders if he's really happy.
i think that the government definitely wants control, becuase they fell that is the best way to run things, and they are afriad of what would happen if they eased up a bit...
Very true Alex!!!! If you don't know what is going on then it can't affect them.
connor i think that the government wants peace first then control. they are trying to make peace by burning all of the books so people will alsways be happy then i think they will gain their control. Right now i think the firemen and the people control themselves
And after they gained all the control i think they wanted to enlarge it and keep it.
If you're still wondering about the Bible, and why Montag was trying to memoriz it, then I'll try to explain here. He was reading it because he didn't want the last copy of the Bible to be lost. So he was trying to reatian all the knowledge he could from it and so that he could learn more.
The end of the book is a big blur that does involve the others that enjoy literature...I'm still confused
Yea Chelsea,
The government definitely loves control and the best way to control is by dumbing the population down and keeping rebellious ideas at bay.
Josh,
Sorry it is a while back but ya thats a good point. He is hiding and his excuse is because he is a coward. He could be organizing a plan or something like that. We will soon find out.
This kind of reminds me of George Orwell's 1984. In 1984 they have a slogan that goes something like: Whoever controls the past controls the future. I think this kind of relates to Fahrenheit 451 because they have made everyone believe that firemen have always burned books, so they never question it. In this way, the government has control over almost everything, including peoples' thoughts.
wait, i'm confused about how Faber cam into the story. could someone explain that to me?
jess~
i think that the gvnt. doesnt know exaclty what true peace is, and i think that they think that the best way to be successful is to have complete control...
I hate that style of learning...it allows no questioning of priciples, philosophies or theories. I like to know exactly how someone came across proof of a fact, or else I have a hard time uderstanding it. I have a feeling that a lot of science class is scientists that aren't quite sure about what they are doing so they make something up that they can't even understand
Elyse,
Yea if he does get caught, he really does not have anything to lose. He loves nobody, he lost his job, and the only things that give him comfort are burned every day.
Hannah,
I think that Faber is just another charcater that Montag accidently met, like not planned, that had some impact on his life.
i think that Montag sat next to Faber at one point and so he decided to go see him again and talk to him about the books he has. Do you think that in a way Faber might be like Clarisse?
hannah- once about a year before the setting of the book Montag met Faber in a park and they talked about books. Faber gave montag his adress and thats why Montag went to his house.
hannah~ montag had a memory of sitting and talking to faber in the park a while back. when he thought about it, he remembered that faber was an english professor, and that he had his business card some where. He decided to find it, and go to Faber for help to make more copies of the Bible. Does that help?
"I didn't like myself anymore. And I thought maybe it would be best if the firemen temselves were burnt."--What does Guy mean by that?
As far as not knowing about things and thus, them not affecting you, I think that is not true. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it won't affect you. Let's say you didn't know about your right and laws in the government. Just because you don't know that there are laws doesn't mean that it is OK if you do something wrong. They may not affect what you do, but the consequenses still apply.
Declan,
You are right. They control the past because they convince everyone that things were one way and they kill off all of the ideas and books that go against what they say.
okay maybe i was a little wrong thanks for the clarification connor
hannahj: Montag apparently came across him in a park a while ago before the book started. They talked for a while, and Fbaer was afraid that his ideas might have made montag mad...it didn't however. Now, Montag goes to him for help becasue they share the same ideas (in general)
oh thanks elyse h and tanal. i remember that now and it makes sense. but i find it strange that Montag would just randomly call him after so long. Is he really that desperate to find out why books are burned?
Jess~
True, but brainwashing is a good way to get people to do what you want, and then therefore having control on them. I think that the gvnt. WANTS complete control, but because of people like Montag and Clarisse, they will never have it.
sorry to repaet myself here---
"I didn't like myself anymore. And I thought maybe it would be best if the firemen temselves were burnt."--What does Guy mean by that?
The war hasn't started yet, the bombers over head are just mobilizing for war.
I think that the government wants control because why else would they treat the kids and the peoplr like that. they dont care about the kids dieing everyday.
sara,
Clarisse is just like a meet once character. She is only in the first pages of the book and then she dies. But in the time she was there, she changed MOntag and made him realize that he wasn't happy. She was the spark that ignited his fury (i guess)
Phillip,
How do we know that for sure?
I'm not so sure that Faber is a 'replacement' for Clarisse in this novel. I think they are similar in their roots, but not up to the tips. They have many key differences.
THOSE WHO IGNORE HISTORY ARE BOUND TO REPEAT IT-
-another anonymous quote...
elyse~
I dont think that he is ashamed of his job, i think that he finally knows the truth about the past, and he is experiencing books, and he is questioning being a firemen.
I have a question relating to what the people are talking about in the middle:
There was a part in the book where Clarisse was talking about what she does in school and she said something about how the teachers just stuff their students full of facts so that they feel like they've learned a lot and know everything. so why would they do this instead of actually teaching fake history to the students about how books are bad and other forms of censorship?
Nice icon Phillip
Kimmy i think that when Montag was talking about Mildred dieing i think he said that because Mildred really isn't that happy and she overdosed on pills so maybe she is dieing. Is that why she is taking the pills?
sara has a god point about repeating history and learning it. If we don' pay attention to what happens in the past, How can we prevent the same things from happening in the future?
Endsleye,
You are right about Clarisse but she stays as a symbol of challenging the system throughout the book.
WHat are the pills? What do they symbolize?
We learn about American triumphs instead of defeat. We aren't that great once it is put all together. Alot of luck and some reasonably good generals have gone a long way. The victors write the history books. The Germans must not have many history books.
I also find it interesting in the beginning of the book when the firemen read something out of a BOOK that tells about all the history of firemen. but the excerpt that they read out of it was fake. it said that benjamin fraklin was the first firemen, which we know isn't true. He may have put out fires, but he didn't burn books.
The pills are like anti-depressents i think. Mildred takes them even though she is supposubly happy.
hannah~
i found that interesting to!!
Josh,
Ya, she keeps on being brought up. Like when Montag was reading the books from the ventillator gril or whatever it is, he kept on mentioning her with ever book they read.
i don't think the pills represent ANYTHING. I think Bradbury has lulled us into thinking that the pills do mean someting, but I don't think that they do anything. I thought it was cool that he anticipated his foot hitting the bottle, like he anticipated Clarisse around the corner. The pills have no outcome...
I agree with adam. I'm also pretty sure that she only overdosed or whatever because she didn't really care.
Connor you have been in the middle the whole time. Having fun?
crista~
i think that you have a goood point... i think that it is a coincidence (SP?) and that the Bible was meant to fall into his hands
Adam,
you could be right but they can also show up later in the book. We will find out soon.
I'm not Catholic, but I've tried reading the Bible. Its HARD. I can understand why he has such a hard time with it.
Sara
Ya i know
The pills are sleeping pills. They help people to go to sleep. Or at least that's the impression I got. Could the pills be something that the governent uses to control the people even more? Mildred doesn't even think for herself or know what is going on. That could be how she is dieing. she doesn't live life to the fullest, because she doesn'tknow how. Clarisse seemed to live life to the fullest by thinking for herself. LIfe is empty here.
I agree completely Sara...
i cant leave my ankle hurta
Okay since Montag and Mildred really aren't that close do you guys think that maybe Mildred might turn in Montag for having the books, especially since she really doesn't show that she care about her life at all.
elyse~
YA!! it is almost like the firemen are in a whole different world, like they are "higher" then everyone else, and they are allowed to have books. Wierd!
ok this is a comment to emily (even though she doesn't have her computer)
religion isn't where you follow your god more than the government. it's what you believe in and how you believe the world was made. people who are religious don't disobey the law, but they don't worship the government either.
She only as to get the blood sucked out when she ovedoses, which has only happened once.
what books are there that are still aloud?
Alex,
I am Catholic and reading the Bible is not the funnest thing to do, but it does teach a lot of good lessons for anyone.
It seems religion is, or has been the scapegoat for feast or famine in human history. Ignorance also plays a large part
sara,
except he does care for mildred! he just might not love her! but he cares for her!
In this story, humans represent less. They don't matter as much
alex m-i agree the Bible is hard to read. It has so much symbolism and parables and things that it makes it hard to understand. but every so often, the Bible is re-translated so that it's up-to-date with common language, so from the original language it has been translated over and over again, that the original words are distorted somewhat.
Sara~
I think that Montag does care about Mildred. Why would he be so persistent to find out where they met, and make her understand books, and him. He wants to have more than an aquaintance with her. He wants to know what love is..
The snake is the thing that switched Mildred's blood out.
kathryn,
i dont think that any are allowed. Maybe just dictionaries or something but Im not sure
People need to be ignorant so that there will be people to challenge the sys.
sara~
i know that he cares because he asked her all of those questions about their relationship!
joshb- i wasn't denying that the Bible is not good for people...it has undoubtably saved countless human lives
Adriana-- they didn't do away with religion, they just took control of it and took away the basis for it. People still worship, but they don't really know much about it.
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Thank you so much for allowing me to participate in your discussion today. I can't believe how many comments there were in such a short period. I would've added my own comments, but it's been a long time since I read Fahrenheit 51.
I'm particularly interested in your blog in my work as a teacher trainer. I've posted in my own blog about your class, and I'd love to have your comments helping me explain it in and understand the process a little bit better. Please visit my blog
(I deleted my previous post so I could make this link live.)
paigen~ I think that he is finally getting hold of the thought that maybe the books could change the world and he has just realized this and so he goes craazy over the book that he has now.
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