Monday, October 23, 2006

Fahrenheit 451 Fishbowl 68-91 period 2

212 Comments:

Blogger Pat said...

Hi,

Just wanted you to know I'll be looking over your shoulder today. I stumbled across this and wanted to observe your process. Mr. F sent me the link.

Pat

Mon Oct 23, 08:43:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

Hi Pat. Thanks for taking the time to watch. Feel free to join in.

Mon Oct 23, 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

okay so i was kind kof confused when Montag was talking about the lillies and Denham's do you think you guys could help me out?

Mon Oct 23, 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Can someone please explain the sand and the sieve passage. I was lost.

Mon Oct 23, 08:50:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Hi Pat,
Have fun!!!! Thanks for watching us!

Mon Oct 23, 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

Thanks for joining us, Pat! Enjoy!
~Chelsea H.

Mon Oct 23, 08:51:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

kjerstinl...do you mean the symbolism or what we read about?

Mon Oct 23, 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

I'm confused with the same thing that tana is. What was all that Bible stuff about?

Mon Oct 23, 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

Tana-

He was trying to memorize the bible bfore he had to turn it in. That is where the lilies are from. Denham's was a radio commercial playing on the train. It was interrupting his thoughts.

Mon Oct 23, 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

i also don't understand the Denham connection too...?

Mon Oct 23, 08:52:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Well at the end, didn't Faber said that he woulod help Montag out? Because Montag started ripping pages out of the Bible to blackmail Faber. So they ARE working together, only Faber isn't the one that is in the action, Montag is.

Mon Oct 23, 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

What is Denham?

Mon Oct 23, 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

oooohhh.
thnx adriana.
what do you guys think about cowardness vs. bravery in this book? What makes someone a coward... and what makes someone brave?

Mon Oct 23, 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

Denham's is just the name of a product. the ad was playing a song and it kept getting stuck in his head so he couldn't concentrate on the book.

Mon Oct 23, 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

well, isn't Faber really the coward since he wasn't going with Montag because he was too scared?

Mon Oct 23, 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Symbolism

Mon Oct 23, 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Tana-- ditto. What did the lillies mean/represent? What was he talking about? I think that the Denham thing was just the subway intercom talkin about advertisments and where they were.

Mon Oct 23, 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

oh i get it thank you so much for the help adriana i didn't realize the Denham was the radio and lilie was from the bible.

Mon Oct 23, 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

People know about Faber's past though, so people would suspect him more in the first place.

Mon Oct 23, 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

kjerstinl: the seive and the sand passage is sybolizing Montags attemps to retain as much information from the Bible as possible in the shortest amount of time. The sand is the information that is sliding thru his seive like brain. He used the example that his cousin taunted him by promising a dime if he could fill a seive with sand... an impossible task.

Mon Oct 23, 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

kjerstinl--

The sand and the sieve is basically symbolism of the sand and how no matter how hard you try you can't get the sand to stay on the sieve, because it goes through so easily no matter how fst as well

Mon Oct 23, 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

kathryn~ then why was Montag trying to memorize it?

Mon Oct 23, 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

kathryn~ you are right, the Denham thing was just a radio station with advertisments... read up a little, adrianna left a comment explaining it.

Mon Oct 23, 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

Ok, if you are confuseds about lilies/denham's. Montag was trying to memorize the Bible. There was a line about lilies. He was trying to memorizie it, but Denham's kept butting in. Does that help at all?

Mon Oct 23, 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

I don't see how Montag thinks that he can change the world. The government got them in this state where they don't think for themselves; and it's awfully hard for one person to take enitiative and actually make a difference. People were trying forever, and all they did is get burned.

Mon Oct 23, 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

When Motag and Mildred are eading the books, is the dog at the front door the mechanical hound from the station?

Mon Oct 23, 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

oh! thanks adrianag

Mon Oct 23, 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

kjerstinl
a sieve is like a strainer that you cook with. You put sand into it and all the small pieces for through and the bigger pieces are left. It is used so you can find shells or something. I thought that Montag was like the sieve and the books were the sand cause he was trying to sort them out to see if there was anything in them.

Mon Oct 23, 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

tana-i think that the Denham's dentifrice is supposed to be a distraction for the people who are on the subway. when Montag is trying to "consider the lilies of the field" he's trying to think of other things besides this annoying advirtisement being played over and over again.

Mon Oct 23, 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

Shauna-
Montag was trying to memorize the bible because he had to turn it in to Beatty and he didnt want the information to be lost forever

Mon Oct 23, 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

shauna~ montag was trying to memorize the bible, before he had to burn it, so that he could expand his knowledge, and undertsand it better. does that help?

Mon Oct 23, 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

Shauna montag was trying to memorize the bible but the intercom kept saying Denham and it was making it hard for him to memorize the bible. Adriana explains it if yoou scroll up a little bit

Mon Oct 23, 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

Thanks chelseah!!!

Mon Oct 23, 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Ok...so my book is a different copy than all of yours, so my page numbers are all different. I sat down and read the entire book yesterday afternoon, so could somone tell me what happened when this section started and ended? thanx

Mon Oct 23, 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

adam-I think that it is talking about the mechanical hound because it says stuff about 'electric breath' and the only thing that would resemble that would be the hound.

Mon Oct 23, 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

jess b- I think that he can change the world, but he can't do it by himself-maybe he'll slowly convince them. But seeing as the community did this to itself, it may not be possible.

Mon Oct 23, 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

Montag thinks that he has nothing left to lose. He has a job he doesn't like that destorys the things that he's realized is so important, and he has a wife that doesn't really care. What else can Montag lose? He's showed he's willing to give up his life for the books.

Mon Oct 23, 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Kjerstin-- He was comparing that memory of the seive and the sand to reading the books. He can keep reading all he wants, but the faster he reads, the less he understands. He doesn't understand them and he doesn't have the background knowledge. So when he reads, it all falls through and he doesn't retain all the knowledge, or really any at all.

Mon Oct 23, 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

hannahj, so what does the hound symbolize? Why is it at Montag's door?

Mon Oct 23, 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

I dont think that Faber is a coward because he is not afraid of helping Montag or of getting killed for having the books. Faber probably has an interesting and dark past that has to do mainly with books and the government.

Mon Oct 23, 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

i agree with hannahj. Also we haven't really heard of any other kind of animal except for The Hound.

Mon Oct 23, 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

Alex m.-- the section started where the sand and sieve part starts. We ended where Faber agrees to help Montag learn to read and understand what he's reading.

Mon Oct 23, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

jess~ Montag thinks he can change the world, because he has started reading all these books, and talking to Clarisse. He is getting a bit carried away. He is really excited, and truly beieves that if everyone saw what he say, and the possibilites of being different, then the world could be changed.

Mon Oct 23, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

I think that the Hound sniffs out books and he has such a good sense of smell, that he can smell the books that are behind the door.
and that's why in the beginning of the book, he growls at Montag because he can smell the books on him.

Mon Oct 23, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger kjerstinl said...

I think that the dog represents danger because he knows about the books and how far could he get if he actually came into the house?

Mon Oct 23, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

anna---
yah.
i don't think they stand a chance. They have a greater oppurtunity since Montag is a fireman; but, there is only so much they can do.

Mon Oct 23, 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

I think that Montag is seeing the truth in the world for the first time, and it came at him too fast. I'm also confused on when he first met Faber...why did that happen? ANNAW- the hound is there at Beattys request...it is foreshadowing something I will not say. Mildred and Montag met in Chicago.

Mon Oct 23, 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

Faber was a coward throughout his whole life because he was scared of helping everyone because he thought he would be caught. He finally became courageous when he showed Montag the radio

Mon Oct 23, 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Josh,
I think that Faber is a coward because he amitted to it and also he said that he was scared of people so he had not talked to anyone since the time Montag and him met at the park.

Mon Oct 23, 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

i agree with Kjerstin i think the only thing that Montag can lose now is all of the books or even his life because he owns books, bu t like you said he already puts himself before books

Mon Oct 23, 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

If it was the hound from the station and he did know about the books then why didn't he come in or tell the fireman that they should burn Montag's house?

Mon Oct 23, 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger declanh said...

I agree with chelseah. Montag may b getting a bit cariied away, but I also think that if people see a fireman that is intellectual, they may think it is ok and try themselves. Montag can't change the world on his own but he may sort of inspire other people to.

Mon Oct 23, 09:03:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

elyse-well can the hound really talk? how could he tell the other firemen about Montag?

Mon Oct 23, 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

There are plenty of animals, however they are illegal and persecuted BY the Hound. Beatty and the other firemen set the chemical balances to mice and rats just for fun...

Mon Oct 23, 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

In the Pedestrian--
People fear a gvt that shoudln't really be feared. They have robots as cops and don't have any security. Maybe people are living in fear of something that could easily be overtaken.

Mon Oct 23, 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

I'm wondering also, what special ability does the hound have? why did he just show up at Montag's door?

Mon Oct 23, 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

On page 72, Montag talks about how the books are important and how the books "point, one way or another, to Clarisse." How is this true? WHat is it about the books and Clarisse that is so significant? HOw might Clarisse contain important information about the past and what is missing in the world? How is this the same with books?

Mon Oct 23, 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

chelsea-I think that the hound has a superior sense of smell just like actual dogs. he can smell books in big numbers and he helps to sniff them out when alarms aren't reported.

Mon Oct 23, 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

Well don't the fireman use the hound to warn them about fires. I don't think it talks but can't it somehow let them know when it finds books?

Mon Oct 23, 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

chelseah~
I think maybe as hannahj said, that the hound has the ability to smell books, just like dalmations are trained to sniff out smoke.
Does that help?

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

Also, is there only ONE hound? Or are there several?

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

hannah---
the dog can't actually talk.
and can't actually communicate.
thats why in my last comment i made the connection to the people being scared of challenging the system when the system actually is weak.

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

I don't think that montag has anything to lose. He has realized that his job is horrible, and that he doesn't care for his wife, and right now his life is boring nothing is happening for him, so he wants to do something even if it's not legal, if it's the right thing and doing things for himself.

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

I don't think tha animal are illegal, I think they are just seen as worthless because they use them for game in the station and when montag says he feels like smashing things and mildred say to take the car and hit some animals. The kids are like that as well.

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

declan, I agree with you but I also think that he is losing his mind a little bit, just like what happened it LOF and Macbeth. Jack kinda lost control and they turned into savages in LOF. And then in Macbeth, Macbeth went crazy with the guilt of killing and also the rush of gaining power. I think Montag is on the same road.

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

There must be others besides Montag and Clarrise (RIP) and Faber...he even says so. I wonder...

Mon Oct 23, 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

Ya.. thanks shauna!

Mon Oct 23, 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger declanh said...

chelseah-

The hound recognizes enzymes and chemicals in wantd people's blood. The hound can track down anyone by sensing these cemicals.

Mon Oct 23, 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

Chelsea kind of what other people have said i think that the hound can smell the scent of books on Montag so he just showed up at his door. Also maybe the people at the firestation programed the hound to find Montag or to go through the town and sniff out the people who have books

Mon Oct 23, 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

adamb-
I agree with you. They don't seem to care about anything besides having fun, which is violence. Animals are just one more thing to have fun with.

Mon Oct 23, 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Endsley,
Faber may be somewhat of a coward, but him admitting it, I think, is kind of an excuse. He is hiding something and I think that at some time he was a rebellious person. Inside of himself, I am not sure if he is really brave or cowardly. You may be right, we will see.

Mon Oct 23, 09:07:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

i agree with endsley declan!
people can only have so much restraint in their lives before they have to break free and rebel

Mon Oct 23, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

He would be happy to die with a purpose now instead of living without a purpose or emotion.

Mon Oct 23, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

its funny how everyone in the books we've read, someone has a mid-life crisis. Ralph has his sped up by being on an island with only guys for company. Macbeth completely loses it, and Guy is well on his way

Mon Oct 23, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Ignorance is bliss-
-Anonymous

Mon Oct 23, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

alexm~ i think that there must be other people like clarisee, montag, and faber. I think that they are just to afraid to speak up, and stand out.

Mon Oct 23, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

Endsleye-- how has Montag become crazy?

Mon Oct 23, 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

ya i agree with alex

Mon Oct 23, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

To add on to alex...There has to be more. Think of all the people that were forbidden to write and read that are still alive. They must be upset also and will be more than happy to help the cause.

Mon Oct 23, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

I don't think Faber is a coward, I think he just likes to call himself that for lack of a better word, he is just being rational

Mon Oct 23, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

Do you think the government wants peace or control???

Mon Oct 23, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

alexm~ good connection, i never would have thought of that!

Mon Oct 23, 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

People are living in a world of fear

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Yea Declan you are right. Montag, now that he has discovered books, he is kind of going crazy. I think that this is going to lead to him getting caught or something worse...

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Connor- I'm not sure that Montag has a had a reason to live for long enough for him to want to die for.

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

kimmyc-I think that he has slowly gone nuts-and is definately going to explode soon...

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

connor~
I think that the government wants peace but in the process they are gaining alot of control.

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

Montag hasnt become crazy quite yrt. He just completely hates the society and that is driving him nuts.

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

connor,
Im not sure what the government wants because it hasn't really been brought up in the book except the burning books fact.

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

kimmy c-I don't think that Montag is crazy, at least he wouldn't be in today's society. in the book's society, he probably is seen as crazy since he wonders about books and thinks about how things used to be and wonders if he's really happy.

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

Alex-
That's a really good point! Good connection for all three books!

Mon Oct 23, 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

I think the government is just following the people, it doesn't really control, the people control each other. The people are the ones who stopped books and press, the people are the ones who chose to be ignorant, the government is just following along and enforcing the peoples' decisions.

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

i think that the government definitely wants control, becuase they fell that is the best way to run things, and they are afriad of what would happen if they eased up a bit...

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

connor---
i think a little bit of both. The government wants to feel like they have power over every citizen. And the only way to get people to fall in line is to make people happy and peaceful.

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Very true Alex!!!! If you don't know what is going on then it can't affect them.

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

connor i think that the government wants peace first then control. they are trying to make peace by burning all of the books so people will alsways be happy then i think they will gain their control. Right now i think the firemen and the people control themselves

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

josh
yea i think Montag is going to get caught, but i don't think he really cares. He's already said he has nothing to lose.

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

And after they gained all the control i think they wanted to enlarge it and keep it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:11:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

If you're still wondering about the Bible, and why Montag was trying to memoriz it, then I'll try to explain here. He was reading it because he didn't want the last copy of the Bible to be lost. So he was trying to reatian all the knowledge he could from it and so that he could learn more.

Mon Oct 23, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

kimmy c: Although this was directed towards endsleye, I think that Montag is going crazy because he has had to keep all of his thoughts bottled up for so long and it is finally starting to drive him crazy. There is only so much that we can keep to ourselves, so Montag probably feels that he needs to tell someone something, or he will go crazy. I think that he is just confused with who to go to and how to tell them, and that he fears that one wrong person could ruin everything. Although he doesn't care if he dies, I think that he fears that the books will continue to if someone doesn't do something.

Mon Oct 23, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

The end of the book is a big blur that does involve the others that enjoy literature...I'm still confused

Mon Oct 23, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

shauna--
i think the gvt. wants control and uses peace as an excuse.

Mon Oct 23, 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Yea Chelsea,
The government definitely loves control and the best way to control is by dumbing the population down and keeping rebellious ideas at bay.

Mon Oct 23, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

connor
i agree i think they liked having control and now they don't want to lose it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Josh,
Sorry it is a while back but ya thats a good point. He is hiding and his excuse is because he is a coward. He could be organizing a plan or something like that. We will soon find out.

Mon Oct 23, 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger declanh said...

This kind of reminds me of George Orwell's 1984. In 1984 they have a slogan that goes something like: Whoever controls the past controls the future. I think this kind of relates to Fahrenheit 451 because they have made everyone believe that firemen have always burned books, so they never question it. In this way, the government has control over almost everything, including peoples' thoughts.

Mon Oct 23, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

wait, i'm confused about how Faber cam into the story. could someone explain that to me?

Mon Oct 23, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

jess~
i think that the gvnt. doesnt know exaclty what true peace is, and i think that they think that the best way to be successful is to have complete control...

Mon Oct 23, 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

I hate that style of learning...it allows no questioning of priciples, philosophies or theories. I like to know exactly how someone came across proof of a fact, or else I have a hard time uderstanding it. I have a feeling that a lot of science class is scientists that aren't quite sure about what they are doing so they make something up that they can't even understand

Mon Oct 23, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

kathrynt: I understand that he was trying to memorize everything, but it was really dramatic and that confused me. What was the whole thing with the Denham's Dentifrice? I was really lost!

Mon Oct 23, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Elyse,
Yea if he does get caught, he really does not have anything to lose. He loves nobody, he lost his job, and the only things that give him comfort are burned every day.

Mon Oct 23, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

To answer connor's question.... I think that the government only cares about control. They are in a war and since they are the most powerful nation they aren't worried about peace at least not much. Also they don't have very much care for the teens that are fighting and killing eachother. That's definatly not peace.

Mon Oct 23, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Hannah,
I think that Faber is just another charcater that Montag accidently met, like not planned, that had some impact on his life.

Mon Oct 23, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

Montag met Faber a long time ago at a park and he gave Montag his number. When Montag was reading the bible he decided that Faber could help him bring books back into society so he called him.

Mon Oct 23, 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

i think that Montag sat next to Faber at one point and so he decided to go see him again and talk to him about the books he has. Do you think that in a way Faber might be like Clarisse?

Mon Oct 23, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

chealseah--
but if you really think about it... the gvt doesn't really have complete control. ALl they have done is brain-washed their people into thinking that they do.

Mon Oct 23, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

hannah- once about a year before the setting of the book Montag met Faber in a park and they talked about books. Faber gave montag his adress and thats why Montag went to his house.

Mon Oct 23, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

hannah~ montag had a memory of sitting and talking to faber in the park a while back. when he thought about it, he remembered that faber was an english professor, and that he had his business card some where. He decided to find it, and go to Faber for help to make more copies of the Bible. Does that help?

Mon Oct 23, 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

"I didn't like myself anymore. And I thought maybe it would be best if the firemen temselves were burnt."--What does Guy mean by that?

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

endsley-
just like clarisse. is there a reason that he met clarisse, she died, and now he's met a character that is very similar to her?

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

As far as not knowing about things and thus, them not affecting you, I think that is not true. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it won't affect you. Let's say you didn't know about your right and laws in the government. Just because you don't know that there are laws doesn't mean that it is OK if you do something wrong. They may not affect what you do, but the consequenses still apply.

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Declan,
You are right. They control the past because they convince everyone that things were one way and they kill off all of the ideas and books that go against what they say.

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

I think that the sand and the sieve in representing how Montag's world is falling apart. He is trying to hold onto the pieces of his life, but he is quickly falling away from everything he knew. It is also reperesenting how Montag is trying to hold onto and understand these books, but the faster he reads the faster it slips away.

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

okay maybe i was a little wrong thanks for the clarification connor

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

hannahj: Montag apparently came across him in a park a while ago before the book started. They talked for a while, and Fbaer was afraid that his ideas might have made montag mad...it didn't however. Now, Montag goes to him for help becasue they share the same ideas (in general)

Mon Oct 23, 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

oh thanks elyse h and tanal. i remember that now and it makes sense. but i find it strange that Montag would just randomly call him after so long. Is he really that desperate to find out why books are burned?

Mon Oct 23, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

Jess~
True, but brainwashing is a good way to get people to do what you want, and then therefore having control on them. I think that the gvnt. WANTS complete control, but because of people like Montag and Clarisse, they will never have it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

The government seems to be like a tragic hero. It wants control, enforces and abuses this control, and conseqeuntly, the society will eventually rebel. Just like in Macbeth, when the power is abused, the citizens rebeled. The society of F451 is in a war, but we don't know why yet. Could these two be tied? No matter what the cause, the government probably won't survive forever, for there will be people who will fight against it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

sorry to repaet myself here---
"I didn't like myself anymore. And I thought maybe it would be best if the firemen temselves were burnt."--What does Guy mean by that?

Mon Oct 23, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

In the book montag mentions to faber that his wife is dying what does he mean by this?

Mon Oct 23, 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

anna
i think that means that Montag realized that if someone was willing to lose their life over books then burning them was the worst thing they could do. Montag doesn't like his job or fireman anymore because he is ashamed of it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger Phillips said...

The war hasn't started yet, the bombers over head are just mobilizing for war.

Mon Oct 23, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

I think that the government wants control because why else would they treat the kids and the peoplr like that. they dont care about the kids dieing everyday.

Mon Oct 23, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

sara,
Clarisse is just like a meet once character. She is only in the first pages of the book and then she dies. But in the time she was there, she changed MOntag and made him realize that he wasn't happy. She was the spark that ignited his fury (i guess)

Mon Oct 23, 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Phillip,
How do we know that for sure?

Mon Oct 23, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

I'm not so sure that Faber is a 'replacement' for Clarisse in this novel. I think they are similar in their roots, but not up to the tips. They have many key differences.

THOSE WHO IGNORE HISTORY ARE BOUND TO REPEAT IT-
-another anonymous quote...

Mon Oct 23, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

Kimmy, I was confused by that to. Does he mean that she is trying to kill herself with her pills and someday it will work, why is she dying?

Mon Oct 23, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

What was the story behind the snake that Montag talks about to Mildred? Is it symblolism, or did he actually see a physical snake? Could some one help me with this?!

Mon Oct 23, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

elyse~
I dont think that he is ashamed of his job, i think that he finally knows the truth about the past, and he is experiencing books, and he is questioning being a firemen.

Mon Oct 23, 09:20:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

Does Montag finally see what the society is doing to him and everyone around him? or... do you think he is still trying to figure things out...?

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

I have a question relating to what the people are talking about in the middle:
There was a part in the book where Clarisse was talking about what she does in school and she said something about how the teachers just stuff their students full of facts so that they feel like they've learned a lot and know everything. so why would they do this instead of actually teaching fake history to the students about how books are bad and other forms of censorship?

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

Nice icon Phillip

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

Kimmy i think that when Montag was talking about Mildred dieing i think he said that because Mildred really isn't that happy and she overdosed on pills so maybe she is dieing. Is that why she is taking the pills?

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

sara has a god point about repeating history and learning it. If we don' pay attention to what happens in the past, How can we prevent the same things from happening in the future?

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

elyse---
Mildred is basically killing herself by ODing on pills... thats what i thought...?

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Endsleye,
You are right about Clarisse but she stays as a symbol of challenging the system throughout the book.

Mon Oct 23, 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger _annaw_ said...

WHat are the pills? What do they symbolize?

Mon Oct 23, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

how do Mildred's pills help her? Does it allow her keep hiding from the world...?

Mon Oct 23, 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

We learn about American triumphs instead of defeat. We aren't that great once it is put all together. Alot of luck and some reasonably good generals have gone a long way. The victors write the history books. The Germans must not have many history books.

Mon Oct 23, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

I think that Montag believes that the books are not only the answer to the society's probelms, but his with Mildred as well. The books seem to separate him and Mildred even more, and they help to cause his unhappiness, as well as society's.

Mon Oct 23, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

I also find it interesting in the beginning of the book when the firemen read something out of a BOOK that tells about all the history of firemen. but the excerpt that they read out of it was fake. it said that benjamin fraklin was the first firemen, which we know isn't true. He may have put out fires, but he didn't burn books.

Mon Oct 23, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

chelseah-- I think that he is guilty and bad about burning all these books. He realizes that he may have been doing wrong things for ten years.

Mon Oct 23, 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

The pills are like anti-depressents i think. Mildred takes them even though she is supposubly happy.

Mon Oct 23, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

I think the pills are just sleeping pills with no signifigance. They just help her sleep.

Mon Oct 23, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

i agree with josh.
she was the one who started Montag's thinking about society and censorship.


What do you guys think Clarisse symbolizes?

Mon Oct 23, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

hannah~
i found that interesting to!!

Mon Oct 23, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Josh,
Ya, she keeps on being brought up. Like when Montag was reading the books from the ventillator gril or whatever it is, he kept on mentioning her with ever book they read.

Mon Oct 23, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

i don't think the pills represent ANYTHING. I think Bradbury has lulled us into thinking that the pills do mean someting, but I don't think that they do anything. I thought it was cool that he anticipated his foot hitting the bottle, like he anticipated Clarisse around the corner. The pills have no outcome...

Mon Oct 23, 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

Okay, what is with the snake that Montag tells Mildred about?! Help please!

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger declanh said...

I agree with adam. I'm also pretty sure that she only overdosed or whatever because she didn't really care.

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Connor you have been in the middle the whole time. Having fun?

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

crista~
i think that you have a goood point... i think that it is a coincidence (SP?) and that the Bible was meant to fall into his hands

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Adam,
you could be right but they can also show up later in the book. We will find out soon.

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

chelsea and hannah i noticed that too, i found it weird that there are still some books that are allowed.

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

endsley-
it's because she is the first person who has really left a 'handprint on his heart.' he doesnt really care about mildred because he would feel the same about her. when does he ever talk about her when shes not around? doesn't he ALWAYS talk about clarisse?

Mon Oct 23, 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger Sarah C said...

He is speaking of the machine that sucked out the poison from Mildred (the sleeping pills).

Mon Oct 23, 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

I think the pills are a way for her to keep hiding from what the world had become too. She has the walls to keep her distracted in the day and her head phones; but, once night comes and she goes to sleep she doesn't necessarily ahve nething to distract her and keep her from thinking. Maybe she doens't like to think.. maybe she wants to stay ignorant and the pills allow her to feel that way.

Mon Oct 23, 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

I'm not Catholic, but I've tried reading the Bible. Its HARD. I can understand why he has such a hard time with it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

Sara
Ya i know

Mon Oct 23, 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

The pills are sleeping pills. They help people to go to sleep. Or at least that's the impression I got. Could the pills be something that the governent uses to control the people even more? Mildred doesn't even think for herself or know what is going on. That could be how she is dieing. she doesn't live life to the fullest, because she doesn'tknow how. Clarisse seemed to live life to the fullest by thinking for herself. LIfe is empty here.

Mon Oct 23, 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

I agree completely Sara...

Mon Oct 23, 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

Everytime Mildred takes the pills, she loses a bit of herself because people have to come and suck them out of her and put new blood in her. She changes everytime she takes them, because it isn't her natural blood running through her vains. She kills part of herself off everytime she takes them.

Mon Oct 23, 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

i cant leave my ankle hurta

Mon Oct 23, 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger tanal said...

Okay since Montag and Mildred really aren't that close do you guys think that maybe Mildred might turn in Montag for having the books, especially since she really doesn't show that she care about her life at all.

Mon Oct 23, 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

elyse~
YA!! it is almost like the firemen are in a whole different world, like they are "higher" then everyone else, and they are allowed to have books. Wierd!

Mon Oct 23, 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

ok this is a comment to emily (even though she doesn't have her computer)
religion isn't where you follow your god more than the government. it's what you believe in and how you believe the world was made. people who are religious don't disobey the law, but they don't worship the government either.

Mon Oct 23, 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger connord said...

She only as to get the blood sucked out when she ovedoses, which has only happened once.

Mon Oct 23, 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

what books are there that are still aloud?

Mon Oct 23, 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger joshb said...

Alex,
I am Catholic and reading the Bible is not the funnest thing to do, but it does teach a lot of good lessons for anyone.

Mon Oct 23, 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

Someone was talking about religion--
I think religion is another way of giving people emotion. People probably got rid of religion for happiness. They didn't want ot be bothered with wether their god would approve of certain actions. Religion gives some people purpose in life. Without it, they can just be bleak and "happy."

Mon Oct 23, 09:29:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

I think that that is possible tanal, but I don't think she would. If she let on that she knew about these books, they might view her as an accomplise. This would be too much of a threat and risk to her, and she doesn't seem like she would take a risk like that.

Mon Oct 23, 09:29:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

It seems religion is, or has been the scapegoat for feast or famine in human history. Ignorance also plays a large part

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

sara,
except he does care for mildred! he just might not love her! but he cares for her!

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger kimmy c said...

i think the reason that Montag is having trouble understanding the words in the books is that he never has had to think as much as he is when he is trying to understand the words coming out of these books. He never learned it at school.

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

Okay, I'll ask again. What was with the snake that Montag talks about?! It is really bugging me!

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger ADRIANA G said...

joshb, what does your religion do for you? I am wondering what your life would be like without religion.

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

In this story, humans represent less. They don't matter as much

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger HannahJ said...

alex m-i agree the Bible is hard to read. It has so much symbolism and parables and things that it makes it hard to understand. but every so often, the Bible is re-translated so that it's up-to-date with common language, so from the original language it has been translated over and over again, that the original words are distorted somewhat.

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

Sara~
I think that Montag does care about Mildred. Why would he be so persistent to find out where they met, and make her understand books, and him. He wants to have more than an aquaintance with her. He wants to know what love is..

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger declanh said...

The snake is the thing that switched Mildred's blood out.

Mon Oct 23, 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger saram said...

how do you know that he cares about her? he might care, but not as much as he cares about clarisse.

Mon Oct 23, 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger endsleye said...

kathryn,
i dont think that any are allowed. Maybe just dictionaries or something but Im not sure

Mon Oct 23, 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger jess b said...

alex how does ignorance play a big role...? I know you need to keep people ignorant... but i don't know if it is a key part in the government

Mon Oct 23, 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger adamb said...

But in the book, it says that they got rid of funerals because they are pagan, so there still might be religion, but maybe a new dominant one.

Mon Oct 23, 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger elyse h said...

endsley, good point because Montag does freak out and make someone save Mildred when she overdoses, but no he doesnt love her.

Mon Oct 23, 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger shaunam said...

People need to be ignorant so that there will be people to challenge the sys.

Mon Oct 23, 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger chelseah said...

sara~
i know that he cares because he asked her all of those questions about their relationship!

Mon Oct 23, 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger AleeA said...

Chelseah: I agree with you that Montag has some feelings for Mildred, but he also wants to be able to say that he is happy so he wants her to understand things and him.

Mon Oct 23, 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger alexm said...

joshb- i wasn't denying that the Bible is not good for people...it has undoubtably saved countless human lives

Mon Oct 23, 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger KathrynT said...

Adriana-- they didn't do away with religion, they just took control of it and took away the basis for it. People still worship, but they don't really know much about it.

Mon Oct 23, 09:32:00 AM  

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