Mr. Murphy's questions
Listening to the discussions, I also had some questions relating to Fahrenheit 451:
Are there circumstances where censorship should be used?
Do the ten major entertainment conglomerates (e.g. AOL/Time Warner, News Corporation, Sony, Walt Disney Co.) domination of the media exert a consistently corrosive effect on journalism and undermine debate, creating a de facto censorship?
Where did Montag’s progression really begin? What cause it to occur the most?
Were there any instances in which Captain Beatty hid an allegiance to freedom of expression?
Continue the conversation...
posted by annes @ 1:44 PM
44 Comments:
I'll start with the question that I have a better guess at. Montag's progression began from what we as readers can see, from meeting Clarisse. The second he met her, everything was different. It was just her personality, it really attracted Montag and made him want more. Plus, her physical features attracted Montag also. So the more that he talked to Clarisse, the more entangled he became with the whole issue of books.
I believe there are cases that censorship should be used. As we get older, teachers teach us more and more of a variety of things about life, but we start out small. If we read Lord of the Flies to a group of younger kids, thet aren't able to really comprehend the moral behind the story. Instead they could think, "Hey, this is cool, let's go do this." I think that it's more of an issue that we're not ready to handle something. Some of the books have ridiculous reasons for censorship (aka, "Where's Waldo?", etc...) but it can be good for a reason.
To continue the conversation, here's a question: What is Beatty's problem with books. Because if we go by our assumption that people are scared of books, Beatty doesn't seem really scared to me.
I agree with Kjerstinl that Montag's progression began when he met Clarisse. She actually observed things, like the man in the moon and the cinnamon smell of fallen leaves. She actually approached people she didn't know to have a conversation with them, unlike anyone else Montag knew in his society. She made him wonder why the world was the way it was and why he shouldn't be reading books.
I also think that there are some cases in which censorship is necessary. Sometimes certain materials just aren't appropriate in certain settings. For instance, letting books with a lot of sexual content be present for 2nd graders to read in their classroom may not be appropriate, and those kids may not be ready to read or hear some of the things conatined in those books. If their parents believe that they are ready, then they can read it to their kids on their own time, but at school, I just don't think that having complete freedom in what kids can read is appropriate.
This is in reply to the question about major media groups and effect they have on good journalism.
I think that since there is an oligopoly on the media, the quality of our journalism goes down to a degree. With there being 4 major companies, Time Warner, News Corp, GE, and Disney, there isn't very many different perspectives. In a way, this does count as censorship because all though the big four aren't stopping smaller companies from operating they dominate the industry some much that is hard for them to get viewers.
If anybody is interested, on the AHS website there is a PowerPoint on the big 4 and what they control. Go teacher web pages, then click on Ms. Crosby. From there select US History 1 Honors. Then select Unit 2. Lastly, click on the media PowerPoint.
Censorship, like I said in my last posts on the other blog, is good, but only to a degree. The fact of the matter is that there is little censorship as it is, especially with the onset of the Internet. Certain news stations such as CNN, NBC and ABC all censor certain parts of their broadcasts, but only the parts that aid in their agenda. This is obviously not good because people have a one sided view as a result. In this case I believe that there should be less censorship. However, I still don't think that certain books, movies, etc. should be allowed in certain places, such as the "Build-A-Bomb" book in a school library. As I said before, this is an objective example because there is no debate on what should and should not be put in the school library because, frankly, it is the school's decision to make. This type of censorship is good, if not wholly effective.
I don't really understand exactly what Mr. Murphy is asking, but for his third question.... I think that Montag's progression really began when he started talking to Clarisse. I think that her outgoing attitude, and knowledge of things "outside the box" are what really started his questioning and imagination. Also, the old lady's persistence to stay with her books and not let them take the books away is what I think really caused his progression to occur the most. I think that both of those people's opinions are what got his wheels turning.
I think the "big four" is more a monopoly than censorship, however that may be one of their effects. Journalists have certain duties that they must adhere to to be proffesional and good journalists. Two of thse are to minimize harm and to educate the people. These have to be very carefully balanced. It is, in a sense, the medias duty to censor themselves, and properly balance how the public should be educated to how much harm that education may cause. That is one reason there is still a lot of debate about the Rodney King beating video even today. Many people say that the public deserved to be educated. But did the video cause harm, such as the LA Riots? Also, there is debate about whether the video was a selective representation of the truth. However it may be, it is important for the media to think carefully about what it publishes. The consequences, though unintended, of a bad story can be catastrophic.
We talked about how the big four companies have come to control iver what we see and hear in the media in history. I personaly believe that inly create the effect that censirship has when someone only gets their news from one source. We discused how some comglomerates tend to lean towards one side of the political, and this also sort of acts like censorship on certain issues. I think there are times where censorship might be appropriate, but that is kind of a grey area, and that personal preferance plays a big part.
About the third question, I agree with chelseah in that Clarisse really sparked his progression, but I also think that he started a long time ago. Clarisse said he was different from other firemen, and I think she meant that he is more curious and might actually have some emotion. But I also think that Mildred caused it to occur, because after talking to Clarisse, and coming straight home to a wife commiting suicide really opened his eyes. He suddenly realized that something was indredibly wrong.
Mr. Murphy~
For your first question, I do think that censorship should be used but only if it is completely necessary. As in one of the post blogs for example, books on how to make bombs should not be in a school library for a means of national security. Also, with all of the school shottings taking place, this kind of censorship is necessary.
I think that Montag's progression began when he met Clarisse because that short experience really had a large effect on his outlook on life.
I think that when Captain Beatty said that if there was a book that offended certain people, to burn/ban it. Every book will in some way effect some one in a negative way. Thus, almost every book will become banned!
This continues with my response to the first question:
Certain things should be banned like the bomb books in libraries as an example. But, things like (as kjerstinl said) Where's Waldo, Alice in Wonderland and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory should not be banned. No one will ever be satified at the same time with the same things. These books should not be banned since there is very little argument behind these cases, but people now have the power to choose what they want to read.
By banning these books, what exactly are we "protecting" our children from?
I don't think there are many circumstances where censorship should be used. If you don't like what is being said or done, don't pay attention to it. Just because a group of people disagree with something doesn't mean other people do and if certain aspects of our life, like television and song lyrics are censored, it is like taking away people's freedom of expression. For example, if peolple don't like ir agree with what is on television, maybe they should go and read a book.
Montag's progression began a long time before he met Clarisse. He was already different from other's because although he hid his questions deep, he still wanted to ask the question of why life is the way it is. Clarisse caused it to occur the most because she was different and Montag could relate to her. She brought out the curiosity in Montag. I think Captain Beaty hid an allegiance to freedom of expression when he didn't try to expose the book hidden under Montag's pillow. I think he knew it was there but he didn't try to take the book and burn it.
Everyone has pretty much answered the third question, but I would like to add something to the discussion on this topic. I think Montag's progression began a long time before he met Clarisse. Clarisse sparks the memory in him of meeting an old man in a park. I think this is the first time he really started thinking about books and questioning the world. We also know that he was collecting books BEFORE he met Clarisse (the ventilator grill is bothering his conscience even before his talk with Clarisse.) But, I also agree with several people who have said that Clarisse moved Guy's progression along the most.
Just to throw something out there:
In 5th period, the question came up of when the government started getting rid of books and why the people went along with it. In class, several people thought that it had been around for a long time. I personally disagree with that point. I think that the change happened suddenly, and not too long before this book was written. I don't think it happened instantly, but I think that there was a major event that caused people in society to want to get rid of books and ideas and feelings. I don't think it happened a long time before Guy Montag's time because if it had, it is more unlikely that so many people would try to hide books. It also struck me that both of the people hiding books mentioned were older, so that implies that they may have know about the old way of the world, and still clung to it.
I disagree with most of the previous blogs. I think Montags progression started before he met Clarisse. He had books in the grille before he met her. There were about twenty of them in there. This proves he must have started his own progression some time before he met Clarisse. No doubt is Clarisse a huge impact on his progression and really kicked him into gear, but I believe his progression started sooner.
I believe that censorship should be used in some cases. If something attacks for instance a race, or religion, and effects their people in some way, then i say it should be censored. If it was a book with "naughty" language then I would say it shouldn’t be banned or censored. This is of course based on age and understanding. Older more mature people should be allowed to read those while younger people should not. It is a hard question to answer, I really can't say where the line is drawn between when something should be censored and when something shouldn’t, or even if it should be censored at all.
I think captain Beatty MAY be hiding allegiances to freedom of expression. He does say that every fireman goes through that phase, and that captains get the special treatment and knowledge. I think that the government wanted to give the fire chiefs that special knowledge for two reasons. One, so that they could help the other firemen out going through that phase, like he did with Montag, so that they will understand, and hopefully be satisfied with that information and go back to their normal business. Two, so that the chief knows about their business, its purpose, and why they are doing it. Not to mention, it only makes sense to have the person in charge know the most about what they are doing.
I also agree with adamb that even though those companies dominate the media, because there are 10, there is still room for debate. Debate requires two sides, and its likely that both sides of something would be presented in those 10 companies.
Also, I would just like to say wish me luck on the quiz tomorrow...I'm going to need it.
Im only gonna answer one question, as its all I have time for. I do think that the Big 10 of the media have corrupted the way journalism should be done. 60 MIN is one of the few shows that is still good all the way through. Thanks
There are cicumstances in which censorship sould be used. The patriot act is needed now sometimes to try and find terrorism which is good, unless we invade our privacy. Montag's progression began when he met Clarisse and she showed him how to look at things in a different way.
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I think to some point there was instances were censorship should be used. Because I don't want my 2 year old watching Barney and Barney is cussing all over the place. I think the journalism of the 10 major companies have been altered over the years. I think that Montag's progression really began once he realized how much the old women cared about her books and that she burned herself. Also the death of Clarisse and Beatty's speech took him skyrocketing! Captain Beety hid his freedom of experssion when telling Montag that firemen always started fire and never burned them out. Thanks so much for coming and watching our class. I hope we made a difference in our learning.
Mr. Murphy,
Thanks so much for coming! I could ses such a smile on your face as we discussed and I never really realized how amazing our class is. Frankly, I actually liked being watch because I was inspired and I just had so much fun. I hope that seeing us, you realize how our tools help us and how it'd be such a tragedy to lose these amazing tools. Thanks againn for taking your time, just to see our honors english class!
OK, so I need to answer the rest of them, now that I'm at school. No, I'm not sure that censorship is necessary. if something has to be censored, like a stand up comedian, whats the point? Thats the way the story is being told, so why must it be changed? If you don't like it, don't watch it. I already answered the second question. Montag really begins to progress when he meets Clarisse. She shows him the better side of life, what hes missing out on.
Mr. Murphy~
I just wanted to thank you for taking time out of your day to come and watch us discuss Fahrenheit 451. We all really appreciate it. I hope that it was worth your time, and that you learned something. We really enjoy the fishbowl, and to me it is really helpful to better understand the text. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy day to come and watch our class.
~Chelsea Humbach
I think Montag had always wondered about boooks in the back of his mind but when he met Clairesse he started to think about them, and question. But I think Clairesse was only a catalyst for the thoughts that were already in the back of his mind, that were slowly coming foward until he talked to her.
Mr. Murphy, I would just like to say thanks for coming out yesterday. We really appreciated you attending our class, and we would love to have you come again.
Mr. Murphy
I think that Montag's progression really started once he met Clarrise. I think that after talking and walking with her everyday after work, it startet bringing out the emotions and colors in him. She made him remember some of the past and she helped him think of his life, wife, job and surroundings. Before he met her he never had questions and thoughts, but after he met her he started having second thoughts and started asking questions. He gains progression the most when he is on duty at the firestation, or when he is burning books.
Mr. Murphy,
Thank you so much for coming into our english class. I really enjoyed having you in our class for the day and to see what you have to say about the book also.(the blog)I liked seeing what you thought about our class and how you reacted to what we do in here. Thank you again so much for taking time out of you schedule to come into our class for the day. I hope we see you in here again soometime soon.
~Tana LeCavalier
Mr. Murphy,
I just wanted to say thank you for coming to our class and taking time out of your busy schedule.
Thanks again!
Sincerely,
Shauna Maty
ok I can only answer two of the questions...
There are circumstances where censorship should be used. Like in school, some book just aren't appropriate like books about how to make bombs, like Smith posted in a previous blog.
I would say that Montag's progression began when he first met Clarisse, but he had been collecting books for a really long time since he had a bunch of them behind the ventillator grill. So he had probably been having second thoughts about his job and about what was in books and if they had any meaning way before he met Clarisse. She just made him start to think even more and she released whatever thoughts he was holding in.
And thank you, Mr. Murphy, for coming in and watching our class yesterday.
Mr. Murphy:
I just wanted to thank you for coming to our class to observe our Fishbowl and how we are learning in this class. Thank you for your interest in our discussions and for posting this blog for us to continue the discussion!
Mr. Murphy-
Thank you so much or taking the time to come out and visit our class. We understand that you have a very busy schedule and I am extremely grateful that you care about our class enough to come in.
Josh Barry
This class is really fun, and I enjoy coming to class everyday and having any information I need at my fingertips.
I think that montags progression began with the daisy moment. I think that in order to have his progression he had to go through a regression from his mindless state. He had to slowly get rid of his 'books stink' phase and TV walls are great phase so that he could pregress into a forward thinking, higher level question mode.
Mr. Murphy,
Thanks for coming to class! it did a wonderful job of speeding up our heart rates and gave us a new meaning of the word nervous! I know you have a busy schedule and it meant a lot to us for you to take time out to see our sweet discussion.
woah...wrong post...here is my post for this blog:
About Montag's progression, I think that, along with many others, Clarisse was the main catalyst. Then comes the lady he burns, and taking books. It all leads to him reading them.
Thank you for coming, Mr. Murphy, and I hope you let the laptops stay!
I think there are some cases in which censorship should be used. sometimes the language isn't that favorable and is sometimes offensive. Other times it is just fine and isn't really that big of a deal.
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On the question of censorship I believe that there are instances in which IT SHOULD be practiced, in instances where offensive language or gestures are used. But this should be taken in context, people have the freedom and right to do what they want. Sometimes they make bad decisions but they have the right to think.
I think that censorship should be practiced where there is any topic that should only be heard by adults. My little sisters who are seven, constantly ask questions on topics that even I do not understand. I think that the news should show happier events instead of all the badness in our world today. Everyone has a freedom of speach but, I don't think we have the freedom to scare people.
First of all, phillips, I think that your picture is fantastic.
Overall, I think that censorship is the responsibility of the family, not the government. However, I do think it is also the establishments choice to choose what they put out. It should be up to a bookstore or library what books they carry. But it is wrong for the government to say that they cannot.
I think censorship limits mankinds basic rights to freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
Thank you for asking questions Mr. Murphy. I think that there are some instances when censorship should be used. However, not very many come to mind. The only situations I can think of are ones where national security or the security of an important person is at stake. Then it would beneficial for everyone not just the government. The problem is when does that turn from good to bad? It seems like it would be pretty easy to overdo it.
The other one I would like to answer is the one about Beatty. I think that he is definitely an advocate for free expression but maybe doesn't want to be. It seems to me like he could be using the job of fireman to get close to books, to have an ability to read them. I don't think he wants them legal though. I think that he thinks the community doesn't have the ability to understand them and that only certain people do so he reads them but stops other from doing the same.
I have to respectfully disagree with those that said offensive language should be censored. If you are offended by that language, it is well within your rights to stay away from it. However, I am not, and I think I should have the freedom to choose what I hear. Just because one person doesnt like something doesnt mean they should take it away from other people.
I think that Captain Beatty hid his allegience when he said that they let curious firemen keep books they have for one day. Reading books is expressing that you think it is ok. If the firestation didn't want people to have freedom of expression, they wouldn't let people keep books for even one day.
Mr. Murphy:
Are there circumstances where censorship should be used?
There may be times when censorship is a prophit to soecity. However, I do not know of any off the top of my head and I have not yet encountered such a case. I personally believe that it is constitutional (looking at the first ammendment) to completely bann a book, yet that may be just my interpreation of the Constitution, as the courts have not spicifically spoken out against the banning of books.
However, I don't believe that it is fair if we overlook the fact that in Fahrenheit 451 it was the PEOPLE who decided that they didn't want books, that they didn't want to think or to have ideas. In this case, it was a people-imposed censorship.
I think that Montag's progression of change and thinking by himself began when he first became a firfighter. Although we do not know what happened from that point until now in the book, we know that he always knew that he was going to become one--he said because his father and grandfather were both firemen. Although he might not of changed his thoughts about his job, all the burning of books and waching peoples' lives destroyed slowly affected his conscience through the years. In the book, we see that ever since he met Clarisse, he made a definite change, but I think that she just sparked the flame to make him change his ways, but his job tried to close his eyes, but actually did rather the opposite and saw his unhappiness, and wanted a change.
Dear Mr. Murphy,
I have not read anything so far in Farenheit 451 that should be censored. I don't think that books need to be censored at all, in fact. First of all, you read books slowly enough that you can tell when something is happening that you do not agree with or you think is inappropriate. You can just close the book or skip that certain passage. This is different than with movies, because unless you have a script, you have no way of telling what is going to happen. Another thing with books is that there are no images, so there is nothing bad to see. I think books are easy enough to censor by yourself, that there is no point in censoring them.
i agree with most people that there are specific circumstances when certain materials should be censored. I also completely agree with tomr about what should be censored. While someone might think that they know what is best for everyone, different things are offensive to different people. We can't fairly control people completely, so why try? Although, there comes a point when certain materials should be banned for the sake of decency. For example, children are today, for the most part, protected from seeing and hearing certain things, like violent movies or bad language. They will learn with time and become mature enough to handle things like those. But of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and actions, so they may view those materials if they want.
I think that today, the media does not dominate the media world completely. Of course, they do have a say in what is put on the Internet, TV, and movies. But, they don't completely control it. People still have the resources to find information for themselves, not necessarily using the major media moguls. (Say that three times fast). You still have a choice on what to watch or read.
That is all. Sorry it is such a long post.
Laura
There are definitely circumstances where censorship should be used. Obviously, you cannot put something visaully inapropriate on a channel like Nick Jr. It is not good for little kids to be exposed to these kinds of situations.
Yes, they do. They own everything that gets the media out to people. They have a major effect on society because the media has a major effect.
I agree with Elyse, it seems that the core to the beginning of his progression started with Calrisse. She opened up a whole new world to him. Every time he sees her, she shows him new ways to think, and question the world around him.
Yes, he seems to have retained a lot of information from the books that he so readily burns.
kenna_d: Who defines visually inapropriate? Are they intrinsically bad, or has society just made them unacceptable? What harm might come to kids, and what are you standards of what is visually inappropriate.
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