Period 2 Question
To continue the fish bowl discussion, here's your question!
Is Julia foreshadowing an event that could happen later on? If so, what kind of an event? How is Julia simialr to Clarisse in Fahrenheit 451? Is there a connection between them? Similarities? Differences?
Tana L
Sara M
Shauna M
posted by shaunam @ 4:18 PM
21 Comments:
I think that Julia is similar to Clarisse because they both challenge the goverment naturally. Julia is experienced, she rebels without a thought. She knows what she is doing, and all the while enjoys it and doesn't worry about Party officials or the Thought Police. Clarisse, in a way, is also like this because just by the way she thinks and talks is rebelling. She doesn't seem to care what others think about her. They both live for the moment.
I have a question to add to the discussion as well: in Fahrenheit 451, Clarisse just disappears, like how people are vaporized in 1984. Since both characters are fairly similar, how could this/does this predict the outcome of Julia's future?
I think that clarisse and julia are very similar in the way they affect the main characters. Julia really brings out new and unknown emotions in Winston. She makes him feel desire and love for the first time. Clarisse makes Montag realize how dull his life and his community is and makes him want to change it.
On the foreshadowing:
I think that Julia could be foreshadowing the possibility of Winston meeting other "rebels" of the current state. The unlikely hood of Julia being on his side before she gave him the note was very great and that is how it seems with every person. It shows that even the people who look like drones could be against BB and Winston could eventually meet more.
I think that Julia could be tricking Winston into trusting her with "new and unknown emotions." She is foreshadowing him being discovered by the thought police. I do not remember Fahrenheit 451 since I read it for lesure about two years ago.
Julia is similar to Clarisse in F451, in that they both cause the challenger to think and feel new things. They are the accomplices in the books. I think that Julia could be leading to Winston and her really working together. I'm slightly confused about what the first question is asking, but she does bring many new elements and possibilities to the situation.
Today during class we had made some connections also between Julia and Juliet in Romeo and Juliet. I find it interesting that their names are also so much alike.
Sara, in some way your comment seems to be slightly ironic. "She is experienced, she rebels without a thought" is what you said, but yet she is committing thought crimes. I think she does think about it quite a bit, because she must be smart and she must know what she is doing.
Unlike Clarisse, Julia seems more down-to-earth and serious. Clarisse seemed slightly ignorant because she was so young and she really didn't care about the society. Julia's focus is all about the society and she is very intelligent and must know what is happening and all about her society.
Clarisse and Julia are similar because both are catalysts to the main characters, both are girls, and both seem to contact the main character unexpectedly. I also think that she is foreshadowing his new feeling and what he will be willing to dare to do in the future.
Clarrise and Julia are similar because of the way they act as intigators to the actions that Winston and Guy make. I think that Julia symbolizes Winston's indroduction into the underbelly of society. I get the feeling that a lot more will happen between Winston and Julia. In fact, I'm thinking that the rest of the story will pretty much revolve around them.
Winston was so sure that Julia was a mindless Party member, but he was wrong. Orwell introduces Julia and O'Brien at the same time. They are complete opposites. One seems old, wise and unorthodox, the other is a young woman and a Party sheep. Winston also had instincts about other people. Maybe these instincts, epecially the one about O'Brien will be just as false.
When we talked in class about how Julia and Clarisse are similar, it made me notice one difference between the two girls. Clarisse has an air of innocence, she is even dressed in white when she is first seen. Julia, in her Party overalls and red sash, seems very different. She tries to appear as an innocent young Party member, but it is only a disguise. She took charge of the relationship and knew exactly what to do. When she gave directions, she was professional and militaristic. Clarisse too was able to lead the relationship with Montag, however, she is portrayed as young and spirited. Julia grew up in a society that was more physically oppressive and more blatantly repressing thought. Because of this, she doesn't seem nearly as innocent and youthful as Clarisse. Although it is possible that they could be friends if put together, it also seems likely that Julia would see Clarisse as weak. Maybe being like Julia is better. Clarisse certainly attracted more negative attention in her society. She didn't have to toughen up and be as secretive as she would have in Oceania.
Julia and Clarisse both have similar roles in that they both create a spark in the main character that causes them to challenge the system, but I agree with Adriana. The two seem very different because Clarisse was more innocent and challenged the system by noticing nature and actually interacting with the world around her, unlike others in her society. She did not seem to have any underlying motives and challenged the system simply because that was her persona. Julia seems more worldly and seems to be challenging the system only to spite the Party and the restrictions it puts on her. I think that Julia's appearance in Winston's life is foreshadowing that there is even more change to come and that Winston will possibly be pushed farther into rebellion against the Party now that he has an accomplice to support him.
I agree with Christa. The role of Julia is a way to ignite Winston's imagination and thinking. She disagrees with the government and constantly is encouraging him to think for himself. Clarisse was the same way in Farenheit 451, she was the first one to make Montag wonder about his lifestyle; however, I think that Julia's role in book and in Winston's life is more significant. Clarisse made Montag think because of her curiosity. Julia effects Winston with her love.
I agree with what adriana said about Winston being wrong. When Winston first saw Julia he was convinced that she was a member of the Thought Police. At one point, he had such hatred and fear of her that he was willing to bash her head with a cobblestone. However, Winston's perspective of Julia turned out to be completely false. She is not a memeber of the Thought Police, and on the contrary wishes to rebel, against the Party rather than work for it. O'brien is another character introduced nearly at the same time. Winston also predicts O'brien's motives without ever even speaking to him, yet Winston thinks he wishes to rebel against the Party. Winston knows O'brien is an inner party member yet he still makes this prediction. Perhaps Orwell was forshadowing in this section, and the conjecture WInston made about Julia will result in the same way with O'brien; false.
I see many similiarities between Julia and Clarisse but I also see many differences. I think Clarisse was much more open about her thoughts and was more imature. Julia however knows she must keep her thoughts to herself. Julia is more grown up and more mature in that she knows what to do and how to be safe doing it. Also society's reaction to these two characters is very different. Julia is seen as just another person working for the Party, no one truly knows her inner secrets. Clarisse was thought of by others as a strange girl with odd ideas. She was not seen or treated as a normal human. However, both characters are similar and connected in that they both have rebellious mind sets agains thte oppressive lives they live.
I agree with all the similarities between Clarisse and Julia. Although one difference that I saw was that Clarisse was the catalyse for Montag to start coming to realizations about his government. With Winston however, he came to the realizations on his own. Although he did see Julia during the two minute hate, I don't think that meant anything. I think that that more was about Winston seeing O'Brien. I think O'Brien is instead the catalyse.
I agree with what Brian said, Julia and Clarisse, though they both have the same 'job' as a character, are totally different people. Clarisse is innocently portrayed, and she is essentially unaware that she is challenging the system, whle Julia is very headstrong and hatefull, every act she does is deliberately calculated to defy the government and their control.
I don't think that Julia will vanish like clarisse did but it is possible, because she is kind of just a jumping off point to Winston. She gives him a boost, throws him into challenging the system and he goes on to do his own stuff and she disappears from the story.
Yes, I think Julia is foreshadowing something that could happen later on just because of her abruptness. By saying I love you to a perfect stranger she reminds me of Juliet (haha Juliet and JULIA are almost the same) in Romeo and Juliet and everyone knows about their downfall. Julia seems somewhat similar to Clarisse in Fahrenheit because she sees things like they truly are and knows that the government is wrong and i think there is a pretty big connection between them. They are only different because Clarisse is openly against the government while Julia pretends to be a good person.
I agree with Jess and Christa. Also i think Julia is like Clarisse because she toys with Winsons emotions just like Clarisse did witih Montange.
Julia to me is going to be a huge part of the book. She probably will have something to do with the final result of the book. She is similar to Clarisse from F451 because she atomatically grabs on to Winston when she gets a chance, just like Clarisse. She seems to have a profound influence on Winston just like Clarisse on Montag. I think that Julia is going to continue to be very important to Winston in the book, and maybe be a reason for his failure in getting rid of the government.
Julia is different in that she could be playing many different parts in the book that we do not know about. She could really have feelings for Winston or she could just be trying to persuade him into telling her what he thinks about the Party. She reminds me of Jordan in the movie "The Island". She is a friend of the main character but could turn on him at any time.
Ouch! This is a hard question. The unconscious...
I would have to say that, based on what I've read so far, the book is illustrating that, despite decades of arbitrarily brutal suppression, peoples' core and in some cases hidden beliefs and emotions can not be wiped out.
As tomr noted, the "hidden ideas that lay dormant within many people in society---the nagging feeling that something isn't quite right with the world, but is often suppressed by superficial actions. Winston's thoughts have simply risen to the surface...". Winston's subconscious feelings, while long suppressed are still alive within him, and so strong that they are "rising to the surface." He clearly can't help it at this point. As benh notes: "...Winston is beggining to lose logic to emotion". I like the word "lose" here. Winston isn't intending to do these things. He knows he should not do these things. But he does them anyway. His conscious caution and fear is "losing" out to his subconscious....
As I'm re-reading the book, I am struck with how Winston's emerging subconscious reminds me of what I see in societies that actually exist today. Take China, for example. The people in China have lived under a regime that has be more of less repressive, often brutally so, for more than 50 years. They are self-proclaimed "Communists". (Although I believe, given human nature, "Communism" always devolves to window dressing on dictatorship.) When the government allowed the economy to start adopting some aspects of capitalism, the people instantly went nuts for capitalism! Despite capitalistic tendencies being repressed for a couple of generations! Winston, despite being brainwashed, threatened, etc. for so long he can't even remember when he was not controlled so, has feelings he just knows arise from a previous, different time. From his subconscious.
As for Winston's changing political beliefs, I am wondering how much they are changing? Are they changing, or just emerging from his subconscious to his conscious thoughts? I really should pull the book out to find some examples, but it seems like when we meet Winston, he already has pretty definite feelings (Bad Feelings) about The Party. And he is thinking about them a lot. And, now that I think about it, maybe his obsession with his feelings about society (which are clearly not deeply repressed within him) is driving is deeply repressed feelings into the open.
A final note: Although some googling failed to find a reference to it, I seem to recall a prof in college saying that one of the main differences between "us" and "them" (China, Russia, etc) was they have "crimes of conscious" and we don't. That is, what you think can be a crime, not just what you do. Is this not close to Thought Crime? You think the wrong thing and you are toast. If you have "bad" thoughts you better keep them buried deeply, down in the subconscious. If they bubble up enough to be detected, you are guilty of Thought Crime - a crime of conscious. I'm not sure the the Conscious in Crimes of Conscious is the opposite of subconscious, but its interesting how the words relate to our discussion of subconscious and thought crime.
I agree with Brian and Adriana. I think that Winston's predictions about Julia and O'Brien are wrong. He originally thought that Julia was a member of the thought police and that O'Brien was "on his side". He also thought that he was writing the diary to O'Brien. Maybe because his predictions were extremely false about Julia, his predictions about O'Brien will be just as false. I think that because what he thought about O'Brien turned out to be more like Julia that what he thought about Julia will be more like O'Brien. Perhaps O'Brien is a member of the thought police that will turn him over, and he is actually writing the diary to Julia.
Benhdad--Your comment reminded me of something christas said about Clarisse in Fahrenheit 451. Clarisse's motives for challenging the conformist system aren't as obvious. Christa, I think you were right in saying that she doesn't have obvious motives and it is more a part of her personality. That made me think of the whole discussion on how Winston felt that the society was wrong. I thought benhdad explained it well, saying, "peoples' core and in some cases hidden beliefs and emotions can not be wiped out." Most systems are inevitably challenged, and Clarisse is an example of this. She may not have been actively rebelling, but her "core" made her act differently from all the other conforming citizens. It was also a catalyst that moved Montag to take revolutionary actions.
Julia knows that doom will fall upon her, but she is willing to enjoy what she has while she still can.
Both Juliet and Clarisse are young girls who freely challenge the system. However, Clarisse is very open about her discoveries and observatioins. Julia seems to be a little bit more knowledgable and tries to stay alive as long as possible.
alex d-
i highly doubt julia is a member of the thought police considering she wrote to him "i love you" in pen on a piece of paper. No one writes in this community and by her writing it out it shows she is different.
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