Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 8:29 AM
Let's get this party started!
Hopefully this will work...
I thought that it was wierd that Montag was trying to get Mildred to listen when he knows that she doesn't care. Or does he think that Mildred cares, or does he want her to care??
I think it was simply because she is convienient. She is right there. Some people drink stale milk just because they dont want to go to the grocery store.
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I think Montag knows that Mildred has a smart side and he wants to force it out. Maybe he wants to know he isnt' the only one h=who is "crazy"
erinl shew hasnt shown too many emotions to this point, so how is she capable of caring? Why would Montag think this.
I think Guy is a little dependent on Mildred. He wants her to help him make the relationship work.
I don't think that she is trustworthy. At least I wouldnt bet on her. She may think she can get amnesty if she turns Montag in, because she doesnt love him anyway.
I have a question to share:The professor Montag goes to is named Faber. What do you think is the signifance of that name?
lindseyI think Montag would think this becuase he can think this. It is human nature to want people to see things the way they wee them.
emily: I know exactly where the name came from. Bradbury himself said he got it from the name of the pencil he was using. Faber is a pencil making company.
Erin, I think that sometimes people try to see what they want to see, so that's what I think Montag was trying to do.
Faber kind of sounds like Saber. Maybe he is very capable of doing things, if the attention is on someone else.
Yes---I think that Montag has this overwhelming desire for acceptance or for someone to relate with him. For instance, he was very concerned about the mechanical hound liking him, and now he keeps thinking about how sad it is that he and his wife dont really know eachother. I think he wants her acceptance and support, and he is trying to make her trust him, support him, relate with him, and even care about him.
Sarah, That ties back to te idea of people always wanting to be right.
I don't like Mildred. Why is she convinced that the parlor walls "give her life". Why is she so convinced that they are the only important thing in life.
Congrualgions SarahC, you were the one to correctly predict the things in the ventillator grille.
Maxine kind of sounds like latrine, so I am not sure if that point is valid. Just a coincidence.
EmilyL- why is Faber significant?
I think she appreciates the parlor walls through habit.
I think mildred has been brainwashed by the society so she thinks that the TV is her life.thanks emilyl
i thnik she sppreciates the parlor walls because they are another part of her superficial word. She just wants to keep gaining materiel items
Madison, that gets back to the whole idea that what Montag wants, though he doesn't realize it, is for there to be love and emotion in the world. To him, the opitimy of this loss of love is his and Mildred's loss of love for eachother.
Lindsey- Montag would think this because he is her husband and he seems to be showing characteristics of emotion and love because of Clarisse. He would trust his wife.
Daniel- mildred thinks its her life because that is what she has been taught. They have TV classes in schools!
I wonder if the point of all these Parlor Walls is to possibly "brainwash" the people of society into thinking and reacting a certain way...
Additionally Faber Casell, makes colored pencils, is there some symbolism to the making of colored pencils, for instance that books open you open to a world of color, especailly in a drab world like 451?
Sarah, that leads back to the point that the minds of the masses are filled with useless information. However, it has reached such a point when these facts take precedence over people.
Commenting on Smith's comment of how fear rules a society:That's why societites run in that way don't work. There is bound to be someone who is strong enough and smart enough to challenge them, and if they can recruit others, then they can successfully rebel.
i happen to love milk and i wouldn't drink stale milk. mkay ben. Thanks
maddyg---one thing about the classes in the schools...Clarisse said that they had transcription classes. What kind of transcription do we think that she meant? DNA transcription? This is just one thing I was wondering...
For Maddy's question, I thnikt the name Faber like Ben said shows subtley shows that maybe in his past, Faber was an author. This is a just a guess.
Madison--I always thought that there were just copying useless facts, as more busy work.
tom we are seeing the material things taking over Montag's and Mildred's relationship.
I think that Guy's relationship with Clarisse is better than his relationship with Mildred even though he has known Mildred for 10 years and he only knew Clarisse for a couple of days. I think that it is because he can actually talk to Clarisse and Mildred cares more about her "parlor family" than she cares about Guy.
Mildred is pretty much the only person Montag can talk to about having books besides Faber. He won't tell anyone else because he fears being prosecuted.
I thought that the transcripition class were just like classes that were all in text or something like that.
nice emily, i think thats a great idea, maybe bradbury did that on purpose...but what could that say about Faber? Is he saying that Faber is the color in the black world? But Faber seems unsure, and not very willing to fight for what the believes in.
Lindsey, I think that Mildred loves the parlor walls so much because she is able to think that her "family" is real without having to take the risk of them actually being real. I believe that Mildred is self conscious, sad and fearful on the inside. Her "family" is not real, and therefore can not hurt her, so she resorts to them all of the time.
Transcription means to copy. Basically, the trascription class is another mindless class.
Montag felt too bad about practically killing the old woman that he feared going back to work. I think he worried himself sick.
............... Faber sounds kind of like father. Maybe he's a "father" to Montag...........
Maddison- i wonder what transcription classes mean too. New Question: Montag and his wife know how to read. Why would they teach people to read if they didn't have books or any reason to read? Wouldn't people being able to read be a risk?
Has anyone noticed that Faber kind of looks and sounds like Father.
I think Clarisse opened his eyes more towards books and why they are important.
I think The colored pencils go back to what I said about the Saber. Faber just needs someone taking attention away from here and then he will become colorful.
Earlier in the book, Montag talks about his encounter with Faber. Maybe Faber was more of a spark in Montag's thoughtfulness and curiosity towards books than Clarisse was.
I agree with Anna saying that she relies on her family because they can't harm her, but I also think that she sees her unhappiness and she know the questions that Montag is asking and avoids that him even though he is her family to because she's afraid he'll bring out more unhappiness.
Yeah, now that I think about it more, those transcription classes were probably just "busy work" sort of classes---that makes more sense because we have come to understand that people just do things to occupy their time...thanks Tomr!
I think Montag was just overwhelmed by everything that happened in a short period of time. The woman died, he stole a book, he couldn't stop thinking about all the books behind the ventilator grille, Clarisse disappeared, etc.
In answer to Ayla's question. I think part of it, is the fact that he is just like a kid who doesn't want to go to school. If you wake with a slight headache and sore throat, what are you going to do but play it up and hope you can stay home. Yes, Montag is physically sick, but at the same way he just doesn't want to go, and he plays it up.
Maddy, I wondered that as well. Maybe they need the ability to a) keep people busy in school, for transcription and such, and b) to understand advertisements.
I agree Ty but I think that Clarisse was a spark to Faber and both to the books.
Does the government actually force all these ideas on society. The only policy that I've seen that they've enforced is the ban on books. Other than that, the government really doesn't have very much presence in this book.
People know how to read because they interact with the TVs. The people just dont know how to comprehend what they read. In society, they jsut recite what they read, with books, you have to comprehend and think about what you read.
Following Kenna's comment I have heard about people that don't get good greades because they are not challenged so they get bored with school. Maybe there aren't stupid people, just people that aren't being challenged...
Good point Tom
maddyg, I don't think that books are the only form of reading in the world. Maybe they still have the tabloids and gossip magazines for people to read, because magazines like that tell you what to think, they don't let you think what you want.
Montag is more intellectual than people in the general society,it could be genetic. He has more interests than the average person, one thing won't stimulate him.
lanec mentioned earlier that faber sounds like father. I already noted it comes directly from a pencil, but it is a pertinent peace of symbolism.Just as a side note, the Vader from Darth Vader comes from the Dutch (I think) word for father.
ty--I think that when Montag started his job as a fireman, that was preparing him for all the ideas that he thinks now in the book...Beatty even said that all firemen get to the point where they don't want to burn books anymore. I think that each person of significance as individually affected Montag but in different ways.
I think tyc is write. They have the television scripts.
Kari, is it possible that the government is in charge of entertainment?
Erinl-In response to your first question, I think that Montag talked to Mildred, even though she doesn't care, because he may WANT her to understand. Montag is either in denial that she doesn't care, or se is trying to "teach" her to care.
Ben, I didn't know that. Shweet.
lauraf: the question is, can they overcome that or will they sucumb to it?
zach--is Montag more intellectual then most people, or does he see his true unhappiness and wants to change it?
I think that Montag wants Mildred to care because she does care for her.
Why does the government in this book not want thinkers?
Faber and Montag's relationship reminds me a lot of the Giver and Jonas's in the Giver. They are the only ones with the "memories" or feelings. Any other connections?
Thinking causes unhappiness, and thinking can be dangerous. It breeds opposition./
Do the viewers of the Television Programs on the screens interact with the characters? Or are they simply just watching them? It just seems like Mildred talks about her family as if she can actually interact with them...
Lane, do you think that Clarisse was a spark to Faber or to Montag? I guess I don't understand your comment.
Zach--Thought creates progression, and the government feels society is perfect the way it is.
I have never read the giver, but the unquestioning masses are somewhat like Orwell's 1984.
I think Montag is just in a position where he can see what his life is like. He may not be any more intelligent that anyone else.
I think Montag is just in a position where he can see what his life is like. He may not be any more intelligent that anyone else.Ty-She was a spark about Faber to Montag. sorry about that.
Lane, that is a good idea. Since people live by their TV's, therefore if the government controls the TV, they control the people.
Why do the people in this book who know they're unhappy, not want to change the situation-like Mildred, or Faber?
zach--I think the government does not want thinkers because then they can't see their unhappiness and their situation, and therefore not revolt or disagree with the government.
The government doesnt want thinkers because if people thought, then they would have ideas on how to overthrow the government or challenge the system, and the government doesnt want that . ..... ......... ............. ................. ..................... ......................... .............................
mariaI think the people are afraid of getting everything burned if they fight back. Fear is a very good handicap.
i think that everything we learn adds to our experience with this knowledge. to actually learn though, not just hear the information, you have to take the action
Mildred may be emotionless because she fears being different, she just watches everything go by and reduces herself to no individuality.
Madison, I think she does interact with the TV on a superficial level. It knows when to say her name, but I think she is mainly just an onlooker.
I think fear is a powerful tool. When people fear you so much, they will not oppopse you. But in this case, the unquestioning acceptance is also a large factor.
its better to know why it happened and how it happened, in order to not create the same mistakes. i don't know how many of you have Crosby for History, but the essay question is kinda the same thing. and i dont know if i'm aloud to post this so i won't describe the question but it said basically that if only a few progress as a society than the society is not actually growing. This is the same in this book for maybe some know how other people are being controlled and therefor may be able to progress but otherwise most of the "average" folk are stagnant.
I dont think that they try to change things, Maria, because I dont think that they believe they are capabel of doing much of anything...or maybe they are just to afraid to stand up againgt they way life is in their society...or maybe even they dont think there is anything that they can change...
to reply to lane and smith.you ahev to think about something, you cant just read it and understand it. you have to think about it and learn, not just memeorize.
haha I never thought of history as learning a lesson from event in history. I pretty much thought that it was all about learning dates and battles in wars. It doesn't seem like we are learning lessons but learning dates and battles.
I have seen many comments on this blog of Montag, being a spark to Faber etc... I think that instead of a spark he is more like kindling. Kindling fuels the fire, but the spark must already be there. Faber already has the spark, Montag just encourages him
On the subject of the TV saying Mildred's name, is human interaction dead? If they get interaction through machines, do they really need other people?
emily, I think that it is the other way around. I think Faber is the kindling and Guy gives him the spark.
When Maria says the she is learning to challenge the system, she says it like Smith is brainwashing us. I think she is more teaching us to think freely.
why does it matter if in this society that people just memorize facts, well why are we even discussing this? Yeah some of you may say that you can just memorize facts for tests while other classes you actually learn information. That doesn't matter, with this society the students just copy facts. They don't even learn it but go to transcription class and re-write it so they feel like their growing, which makes them not want to challenge the system because they feel like society is doing them good while they are really not growing and learning in their society.
I agree with ty that Smith isn't brainwashing us. I think busy-work brainwashes people.
School helps us try to answer our own question of why and how things happened. It inspires thought.
Along with teaching us challenging the system I think its more preparing us for what mgiht come up in life.
good point Joanneh, I think that as time progresses and people become more and more accoustomed to listening to the characters that are in the televisions...but then again, there are characters like Montag, who seems to desire human acceptance and interaction more and more...
What is the symbolism of "good night, and good luck."?
Maybe the school is teaching us to challenge the system to think we're not being brainwashed, when really, that's exactly what they want us to think.Yes, I'm paranoid.
When was the McCarthy era? I missed that.
Can you be taught to challenge the system? If we're all taught to challenge the system in the same way, are we challenging the system? or are we setting up a new system that will eventually be 'challenged' itself in the same way?
tom that doesn't make any sense. Can you please clarify?
i think they are not teacing us to challenge the system, but giving us knowledge.knowledge that may help us to challenge the system, but it is within ourselves how and even if we use this information.
joannehwe aren't being taught exactly how to challenge the system. I think we all come up with different ways to challenge the system.
well tom, we know that that isn't the case because our society is growing and producing more people that are successful.
Joanne...I think that we're not exactly taught exactly how to challenge the system but like we've said, how to think for ourselves and through that comes challenging the system. When we learn what's actually going on or what people are saying, then you can form opinions about it and then if you disagree, you have the knowledge to challenge it.
Edward R. Murrow draws similarities to Montag because they both challenge the system. Murrow has more power because he has more access to the public.
What I mean, is this: What if the school is just teaching us this to make us THINK we can challenge the system, when really, it's just to give us peace of mind (similar to the pointless "knowledge" filling the heads of 451's society)?Have we seen an example of challenging the system in any of our literature as of yet that ended in success?
tomThey may be doing that, but it apparently is not working if you are thinking that.
tomr.yes in mavbeth, macduff challenges the system by talking about mavbeth and his intensions.because of this, macduff became king
But, Riley, are we really producing people that are more successful? Some of 451's premonitions, such as the decomposition of the English language (chatspeak, I'm looking at you), and the increasing obsession, especially among youth, with media and entertainment.
Madison, I agree. However, the people see so many of the other, stupid kind of characters, the characters like Montag get washed out with the rest. And the stupid characters are not interesting, which limits the attention span of the people. Then, they don't realize there are characters who think.
Off of Michelle's comment revolution genrally starts with the people.
Tom, we may think that some of the stuff we learn may seem pointless to us now, but when we get older we will be glad we learned it.
I just had to throw something out here for Emily... Dates CAN be important in history. Dates can help one understand events that happened due to the thoughts of the time. For example, we all know that the Civil War happened due largely to the idea of slavery. Now, since we know the time that this happened, we can understand that this practice of slavery was generally accepted at the time. If there was slavery now, however, the idea of slavery would take on a whole different meaning.
There are things that need to be known. Such as it is now needed to know all of the states in the order of when they joined the nation, but the important thing is that they joined the Union at all. One does not need all of the dates of all of the wars ever fought in the war, but it is good to know that wars WERE fought, that people dissagreed, and that lives were lost because of them, and families were hurt
AFTER THE FISHBOWL!I just thought of this so I thought I would add it. Faber Castell, the company the I was blogging about before and the company from which Faber name comes from also is famous for making colored pencils, crayons, etc.. that water can be added to enhance the final porduct. Since water puts out fire, is there underlying symbolism in the fact that the colorfullnes of 451 can be enhanced by adding water(stopping burining books?)
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