Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 11:13 AM
Lets Get This Fishbowl Started!!! YAY! :D
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in hererererererererer! just like chelsea said!
Ok, I just have a basic question.What is the symbolism of the coral paperweight breaking when Winston and Julia are caught?
So, what do you guys think of what Goldstein said about war in the book? I thought it was weird how war was used to make a surplus of goods without making the quality of life any better for the people. What do you think?
hm. Well we mentioned that the paperweight symbolized 'hope,' so maybe the hope is gone?
sarah-i think it symbolizes that their dreams of that perfect world were shattered from being caught and that their "perfect world" was shattered too.
sarah_i think that the symbolism is that the paper weight was for winston, the reassurance of the past, and now that it is broken, it is showing that the past may not be there like he thought it was...does that make sense?
sarah-I think that there was big symbolism! Winston talked about how the paperweight was like his own perfect private world where he could escape from the Party, and when it broke, he realized that his dreams of defeating the Party were not going to come true and that he was going to pay the price for his thoughtcrimes and actions.
good point sarah!, I was thinking about that too. Winston was always talkking about how the paper weight was big and beautiful, like a world trapped inside the glass. When it broke and he noticed how small it was, it seemed like his world came crashing down.
I think that is symbolizes that he is still alive like the coral but the shell and protection that was around Winston and his society is no longer there since he was turned in and cought by the thought police,
it symbolized the things of the past that would lead onto the future and it shattered, but did not completely break.
OH! For the symbolism of the paper weight breaking, maybe, because he said that he thought that he and Julia were the coral, now that the glass is broken, they are free. I don't know how they would be free but it is a possibility.
i agree with you anna.it was of hope, the past, and their wishes for a life without the BB.and now they are gone, just like Julia and Winston got caught.
I agree with everyone talking about how it shattered their world and dreams and so on. But what was the significance of him tripping on the fact that it was small? That is what I remember most from that part is how he was obsessing about it was so small.
Thats a good point Tana!The coral is also "alone", like Winston without Julia.
chelseah, your comment is a little confusing, please explain more. What do you mean by how the paperweight was the past, and maybe it wasn't really there?
I think that the paperweight represents a glass lump. I also think this part is being overanalysed.
Christa~~I think that the war is used in 1984 to keep the people working hard hours. It gives the government an excuse to keep the people away from luxuries that the government doesn't want them to have. If the people get a taste of it, they may try to break free.
I think that the paperweight breaking represents their whole world cam crashing down because everything that could go wrong did. It seemed like the coral represented Winston and Julia finally doing what they thought they needed to, but sooner or later the perfect little bubble around them needed to pop and they needed to come back to reality.
well like you guys are talking about in the inner circle, its probably like all the hope they had of having a safe place to be together just comes crashing down and the safety that they felt is broken. But the symbolism of the coral not breaking is probably that there still is a hope in the world that things will change. Even though the safety broke, somewhere in the world there is still a hope. Does that make any sense?
I agree with Chelsea. Winston was shocked when the paperweight was broken because he said that it was a living thing, and it just seemed to die with the crashing of the coral. It was like the past disappeared for him.
The coral survived, but I don't really think that this symbolizes that Winston still feels alive, because before he was caught by the thought police, he said, "We are the dead". I think he knew that he was dead from the start, even before he started seeing Julia.
Yea I agree, I think that the symbolism of the paper weight breaking was like his own safety shattering. The room he was staying is is alot like the glass around the coral. Winston is like the coral since the coral did not break. But now, the protection of the room, or the glass, is shattered and he is discovered.
shauna- your comment was really interesting. Just to expand on it, I think when he saw how it was so small, it was like he realized how insignificant he was. He felt bigger and safer, like there was hope in the glass world, then he saw and small and unpowerful he was.
christas-what do you mean that the war goods wouldn't make the people's quality of life better? I don't understand..
I agree with both Endsley and Chelsea, Originally the paperweigt symbolised the way that Winston and Julia had something beautiful going on, but still they were suffocated, surrounded and inhibited by the government, but when the paperweight broke, it symbolized Winston breaking free of the governments control, being part of the brotherhood, Winston being allowed to grow and flourish again.
nice spelling of overanalyzed alex.But i do think that it has some symbolism, and i do not think that bradbury would put something like this in a book without symbolsim. It could also be foreshadowing to the capture.
Brian thats a good point that the glass is like the room and the coral is Winston alone in the world now.
The paper weight breaking was a symbol of the world crashing down, as everyone is saying in the inner circle.
I think that the smashed coral symbolises winstons hopes being smashed. Everything was getting better with winston, He was trusting to many people. This lead to his downfall.
Elyse: When he was talking about how small it was, maybe he thought that the glass was the world and he and Julia were the coral, but when it shattered (they were caught) he realized how small the coral was in comparison to the glass (how small he and Julia are compared to the world.) Maybe at first he thought he and Julia could make a difference but now he realizes how small they are.
I think that the coral was Winston and the glass was his hiding spot and secure world, which shatters and leaves the coral vulnerable and weak.
The coral staying intact represents the past still being there and the glass around it represented the past being hard to see and foggy, but the glass went away after he read the book and had the past cleared up.
I agree with Adam's. His point make sense.
Maybe they will be dead soon in the brain, because they won't be able to think anymore, so technically they are "the dead", but the Thought Police haven't physically killed them yet, so maybe that is what the survivng coral symbolizes.
Going off of what christa said, when I think of coral, I don't really picture it as a living organism. It is a living creature but it doesnt have some of the same characteristics as a typical living creature. So maybe Winston is still physically living, yet he feels dead.
I really liked what Sarah said. I think Winston finally realized that he really can't overthrow the party by himself. He came back to reality and realized how small and powerless he really was.
Brian- I disagree, like in my comment above i think that the glass meant suffocation, prohibition to winston, or the coral. Becuase coral is a living thing and by being put in glass it is being not allowed to grow or be alive, so by the glass breaking the coral is given the opportunity again to grow and live, just like winston.
Ok so what I want to know is why is O'Brien part of the "brotherhood" when he knew that there wasn't much hope?
Emily,I don't think that WInston really is free and part of the brotherhood because he was caught by the thought police.
Hannah-In the book, Goldstein said that the Party used the continuous war to produce goods and make themselves look powerful in their economy, but they did not want to use the goods to make the lives of the people better, because if the people are comfortable, they begin to think, and this could lead to rebellion against the Party.
I agree with Christa.If Winston is the coral in the glass, he knows he is going to die, but he is hidden in the glass. He is safe for the time. When the coral is exposed, he realizes he is finally about to die.
This kind of reminds me of Fahrenheit 451. When I think of the comparison with the paperweight and F451, I think of Clarisse, and books. Clarisse gave Montag a sense of a feeling of the past with her knowledge of the past and books and such. Then when Montag actually read the books, and once they were burned, he felt lost. I think that they are the same because Winston and Montag have something that they care about and are interested in, and suddenly it's just GONE.
Emily, I am kind of defending Brian here but the coral in the glass could have already been dead, but now the glass is preserving it in safety, sure it won't grow, but it will "live" longer.
This is sort of more along the topic of the inner circle, but had Mr. Charrington always worked in that shop or was he assigned to "work" there to watch Winston. If he was assigned to work there how did they know Winston would go there? and who was the one who wanted to watch Winston?
What do you guys think about how the song relates to the shattering of the glass?I think that the paperweight was Winston's candle, but once he was caught it was shattered and not beautiful anymore. i.e. the chopping off your head part.
Tana-Winston may have been caught by the by the thought police, but for that time between his mindless submission to the party and his capture, he truly was free.
kimmy-i dont really understand your question... do you mean like why is he acting like something that he isnt?
Mr. Charington was a thirty-five year old member of the thought-police. I think that Julia was hired as a spy. I think she knew O'Brien and Mr. Charington were agaist Winston, but she lied to winston so he would get caught.
kim-i dont think that O'Brian is really apart of the "brotherhood" i think that he just is setting them up.
Emily, you are entitled to your opinion, but Im sticking with what I said. And Kim, I believe Obrien is not a member of the Brotherhood at all. I think it was all set up and is a scam in order to catch Winston.
Sara i like what you said, the coral was like Winston living in this world of his own with his own beliefs and dreams, but when the glass shattered he came back to reality
elyse, I think they were dead before in the brain. They have no feelings, no singing, no hope or friends. They are only shells in which the Party pour themselves into. In essence, they themselves are dead, but the Party keeps them living. Plus, literally, Winston and Julia are dead because they are enemies of the Party, and will eventually be vaporized.
Shauna, what do you mean the paperweight was Winston's candle?
That's a good point kim. I didn't understand that either. O'Brien seemed to be so 'on fire' about changing the world and all that, but then he said to Winston, "Well if you're caught, you'll just die and that's too bad for you!" It pretty much seemed like he didn't even care that he might be caught. In fact, O'Brien seemed to know that Winston would be caught. Do you think that maybe he tipped off Mr. Charrington? And he could possibly be two-faced?
Good point paige,But since coral isn't really living in the literal sense, it can be returned to water and assimilate into a larger mass of living coral, allowing it to live again. Do you think that is the same with Winston?
alexd-why would they single out winston like this? out of everybody why winston?
Elyse-Who said that Mr. Charrington was there necessarily to watch Winston? He could have just been there to be on the watch for anyone in the Party who would happen to come down and try and to buy something. The thing that I wonder is why he didn't turn Montag in earlier, because didn't Julia and Winston go to their room for a long time?
I agree with Endsley
Alexd-O'Brien has not shown any signs that he and Julia are against Winston.Also, why would they beat Julia when they are captured?
Thanks Christa! That makes a lot of sense. I guess I don't remember reading that part.
That's a really great point Shauna. I think that the paperweight was his motivation. It guided him. It showed him that life can be perfect. But when it was shattered, it was clear that his dream for the future was not realistic.
But Brian, if you think that O'Brien was setting them up, how would he know about the little room above the junk shop and that that was where Winston would go right after he got his briefcase. I think it was Mr. Charrington that set them up. But like you said, you are entitled to your opinion.
ALex DIf you think that Julia took part in this situation with Mr. Charrington and O'Brien, then why did the thought police beat Julia when they came into the room and discovered them?
sorry didn't mean to do that twice
Kjerstin-Maybe Mr. Charrington was just waiting for the opportune moment. Maybe he was trying to get more evidence of their crimes form the telescreen, or maybe he was just building up thier hopes that maybe they wouldn't get caught so that that when they actually were caught, their will to rebel would be broken.
Kjerstin that's probably true that he was probably there to watch out for anyone for the Party, and maybe it is just ironic that he caught Winston, but it's also possible that someone wanted to keep an eye on Winston specifically.
I don't think that Julia had anything to do with the Thought Police.It could be possible... but I think that she actually feels affection towards Winston and wouldn't do anything to see him fall.
Emmanuel Goldstein is an interesting name. Emmanuel means "Savior" in hebrew or something... could Orwell have put this in here for a reason?
saram:if winstons motivation was a paperweight, then he needs help.
I agree with Tana. If there was any time to tell Winston that she is a spy it would probably be then.
Kim-I think that Emmanuel means "God with us". What do you think is the significance of that?
Kjerstin, why would they plant a member of the thought police in a deserted little shop in the middle of no where, you would think they would want to catch as many people as possible. I think that Mr. Charrington was put there after Winston bought the diary to wait for Winston to come back. THey probably have been watching him for a while because he is kind of a strange person.
I think that maybe mr charrington wasn't placed there to catch people and turn them over, because he had all the evidence he needed against winston when he bought the coral, i think that he got scared for his own safety, since julia and winston were endagering him by doing what they did, so he freaked out and reported them
Paige I'm not saying that Obrien knew about the shop. But we saw how Mr. Charrington was a member of the Thought Police why couldn't Obrien be as well. And there was a hidden telescreen behind the picture of the church. Obrien might not hoave known exactly what or where Winston was but I think he has betrayed him.
Alexm-It's not that he's doing it for the paperweight. He's doing it for what he thinks the paperweight represents. That perfect world is his motivation and the paperweight is what reminds him of it.
Kimmy That's an interesting point, maybe Big Brother is really the enemy here, and Emmanuel Goldstein is the good guy.
I agree with Jess, I don't think that Julia had anything to do with the Thought Police because she was being beaten at the end of the chapter. Even though she wasn't that interested in Goldstein's book. I think it was more O'Brien who seems more sketchy to me.
Kjerstin-We were also talking in the inner circle that they police wanted to wait for the oppurtune moment when Winston was so vulnerable and so hopeful so that he wouldn't ever try to rise up against the government again.
Jesica, I dissagree with you, I think that she eighter is for the thought police or the spys. She gave Winston love so he would trust her.
Kim-Another good point! It could be possible that Goldstein will end up being the "saviour" of this country. But then again, Goldstein is a Jewish name, and Emmanuel is a Hebrew word..so it could just be pure coincidence.
Good point Brian! I guess it could sort of be a conspiracy. If there was a hidden telescreen in the old room, maybe there was a hidden one in O'Brien's room. Perhaps O'Brien was just trying to get Winston to confess.
Brian-Winston and Julia told O'Brien about their hideout. He then told them that it should be only temporary and would be giving them a new soon.
Just think, there could be any number of people in the Thought Police. They can have people everywhere. Wouldn't they need someone to watch people where there aren't telescreens? That's exactly why I think Mr. Charrington was there. It's not like it's that hard to identify people in the Party, so he could just watch people. like Winston, come in when he believes that people are not watching him.
I think that BB and EG are made up characters that are shown to the people saying, "here is the good guy, here is the bad guy" and the people dont know anybetter becasue they are brainwashed, so, the will turn to the "good guy".
Emmanuel Goldstein probably is the good guy in this government, because BB wants a "bad" society, where no one can think, or anything. But did Orwell make good and evil from two non-existent characters?
As Hanna said, Goldstein might be another name for jesus, one who will bring people to freedom.
I definitely agree with Tana in saying that Big Brother is the bad guy and Goldstein is the good guy. I mean, what has Big Brother really done for his people? Besides scaring them so much that they're afraid to do anything wrong..oh and reducing their chocolate rations. He's a terrible man. hahaha
Julia's personality is just like selfish. She only wants to do things in order to get self-benefit. And part of that is through her sexuality.
Sara:Well, even still, hes keeping his hoes represented in a paper weight, which has just been broken. Thats really narrow minded to me, on Winstons part. And stupid, because theres no security anymore. How ignorant is that?
Oh, thats right Phil thanks.
paige-i agree with you but i also think that maybe Mr. Charrington was maybe placed there from the beginning because many party members had to go to the "black market" to buy things that they were rationed like razor blades and everything else. I think they he was planted there from the beginning to find the party members that do go there and then they become targets because they are rebelling by going there.
Alex DI think that it was questionable at first whether Julia was a member of the thought police or whether she actually has affection for Winston, and at this point i really believe that he has affection and feels something with Winston, and that she is not apart of the thought police. But you know that is my opinion
I agree with shauna, the party ahs so much power that they don't need real people to use as their 'good guy' and 'bad guy'. and i think that if emmanuel really did exist then he would have been hunted down long ago, or they at least wouldn't have shown his face on the telescreen.
I agree with Paige and Phillip. I think that O'Brien is setting them up, just like Mr. Charrington did. I bet that there was a hidden telescreen, because there was one in the old room, even though there supposedly wasnt one.Do you guys think there is any symbolism that the telescreen was behind the painting of the old church??Especially since Winston was so determined to figure out the whole rhyme?
I agree with Shauna. I don't think BB or EG exist. I think they are both made up to keep the people forcfully under the party's control without them realizing it. But where did EG's book come from if he doesn't exist?
Maybe neither of them are the bad/good guys. Not everything is printed out in black and white. BB's way of ruling is through control and a way of communism. To some people, that's the way a gvt. should be run. To Americans, democracy is basically the only way someone could rule over another, which is Emmanuel Goldstein's views. It reminds me alot of the early philosophers like Locke and people. Everyone has different views.
Going off endsley's comment, do all shops that have things from the "black market" and other places where thoughtcrime people could go run by members of the Thought Police?
I agree with Endsley and Paige because they could have tracked Julia going to the black market, and then knew that Winston was always with her. Since Winston gladly took the goods, they knew he was rebelling also.
Alex D:Wait- are you comparing GOLDSTEIN toJESUS?
Hannahthats good and also i think that Big Brother was giving the people two minute hate only towards Goldstein so that they wouldn't realize that he never did anything bad and that he is good. also so that no one could have hate towards Big Brother since he is trying to control the people.
ya im confused.. what makes you compare Goldstein to Jesus?
Tana, if Julia is a member of the thought police, as I said, she could beable to make Winston think she was with him, as O'Brien and Mr. Chandleton also made them think.
Good point Phillip! I forgot that Winston told O'Brien about the hideout, maybe O'Brien did betray him. He and Mr. Charrington could both be members of the thought police and they could have worked together to catch Winston and Julia. I think that Winston started trusting too many people on first instince.
Emily-The only problem with what you said though is that the people in Oceania never left Oceania. So if Goldstein left, how could they find him? Plus, he could have a new identity or something.
Yea Endlsey, anyone buying an item from an antique shop is obviously interested in the past. Perhaps they are not immidiatly arrested, but I'm sure they are monitored more closely. Perhpas the anitique shop was set up by the Party for this reason, to attract potential Party haters.
good questions chelsea-ya i think that there is some symbolism because Winston wanting to know the rhyme and the telescreen behind the painting.is it ironic that the whole ryhme came together with Winston, Julia, Mr. Charrington, and O'Brian?
chelsea-I think that htat is an interesting question. I think that it is another reminder the gvt uses to show that they are in power and they will always have control. The fact that Winston was so interested in it also shows that the gvt is basically brutal and really doesn't care about hte people, or more like the fear of the people. They take the good and make it bad. They take the bad and make it good.
ummm im pretty sure julia isnt a member of the thought police.
good point KJ-I don't really know the answer to that other than to say that Goldstein never existed in the first place.
I agree Brian, the antique sho[ is really just a trap for anyone who walks in.
I agree Endsley. Maybe the junk shop is sort of a trap to vaporize people just for going there. They might not be looking for a single person, but rather are finding as many people as possible to be able to catch so they can find out as much as possible about the Brotherhood.
Chelsea that's a really good point, i agree that i think that O'Brien was setting them up, he is an inner Party member so it is hard to believe that he is really part of the Brotherhood. And that's really interesting to think about, I think that church sort of symbolizes good and the past at the same time and then when the telescreen is shown the painting breaks. The rhyme sort of seems like a theme in this society because in the end the chopper always comes to chop off your head.
well I wasn't comparing him to Jesus..someone else said something about the word Emmanuel and that kind of sparked that whole thing.
Alex D.Goldstein doesn't mean Jesus... I just think that Orwell might have been comparing Goldstein was like Jesus... like he's a good guy even thought the government sees him as bad.
endsley-i dont think its ironic, i think its a coincidence. like i think that there is definitely a reason for the rhyme, and that it shows that sometime in the future, they will all meet again?
Josh- If the antique shop was a trap for people, then why did they keep going there? surely people would have noticed that when somebody shopped there more than once they disappeared. i wouldn't want to go there if i saw that, i mean, these aren't that stupid, are they?
Alexd, If julia is a member of the thought police, then why did the Thought Police beat her when the found her in the shop? Why would they beat their own people?
This is kind of random but going back to the poem about the churches, they finally know the whole poem so this is there fate. Everything the worked for led to the "chopper coming to chop off your head". I know it is a little grotesque but it makes sense from what we have established about the poem in previous sessions.
One thing that confused me was that it seemed like Mr. Charrington was just set up to work there by the thought police, but at the end he's freaking out about cleaning up the glass so does he actually live there?
Live long and Prosper!
hallelujah praise goldstein
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