Fishbowl per.2 1984 147-167
posted by annes @ 7:43 AM
Smith's 9th Honors Class Blog
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143 Comments:
first!
So what are we gonna talk about?
It seems like Julia might have been put in the book to show how hopeless the situation is. Winston thought he found and accomplice to challenge the system, but she turned out to be almost as bad as other Party members.
just seeing if mine blogger is working
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What do you think about what the inner circle just said about a rebel with a cause vs. a rebel without a cause?
Lets start with what we are talking about in the inner circle. So Julia is a rebel from the waist down because she doesn't really have a reason to rebel, whereas Julia just does it for the fun of it.
Hey I have a question about one of the questions on the quiz. What was Winston's definition of betrayal?
I don't think that Julia really knows what she is fighting for. I think that Winston knows, but doesn't know how he is going to go about it.
yeah i didn't know that either brian
Adriana, what do you mean by that? I don't think she is as bad as the other party members.
So Winston feels like he's going to fail breaking down the party system... why does he even try?
Julia find enjoyment in going around the government. I think that she doens't want to change the gvt. just because she knows that she can work around them... and she can rebel against them without them knowing.
That quiz was pretty hard.
I think that Julia knows that she is fighting for something. She just doesn't know what it is because she has only ever lived under the party, she knows nothing else.
I agree with what Ms. Smith just said. I think Julia wants to be against the party but she isn't really sure and she doesn't have any power to do so where as Winston does have the power if he wanted to do something about the government.
brian--Winston thought that betrayal would be not loving each other. Therefore, he thinks the gov. can never make them betray each other, even though they will give each other away.
Winston's definition of betrayl was that betrayal is not confessions, to make Julia and Winston to stop loving each other is betrayl. It was on page 66 (I think.)
Yes Adriana, what do you mean by that.
Also, I think that Julia is being a lot smarter than Winston in the situation. She cares for herself, in the present time. Winston is going for the future. A bit futile, for the time being, it seems to me.
I agree with what Ms. Smith said. Julia does settle rebellion, where no one really knows that she is rebelling, but she takes down people one at a time. Whereas Winston wants to take The Party on full force head on.
kim-
i think that it is more of a personal challenge for Winston to go against the government and rebel against it.
He just wants to prove to himself that he has the ability to do so.
I agree with Adriana, Winston said that the government can make you say something, but only you can make yourself believe it.
I agree with Shauna. Winston has the memory of what life was like before. He knows what he is fighting for. Julia can't remember life without the party, so she is somewhat clueless when Winston says he wants a better life because she knows nothing better than her life right now.
going along with what josh said, Julia is going around the government, however eventually both she and Winston will be caught, so why doesn't she get the courage to try and break down te government. Is the government a safety net for her since she's used to it?
I agree AlexM. I think Julia wants to rebel but also wants to stay alive. Whereas Winston doesn't really care if he dies, so long as he can take the Party down with him.
Julia has no direction in her rebellion. He rebellion only goes so deep. Her type of rebellion is only scratching the surface, smuggling food, being intimate. But Winston is has a much larger rebellion which he wants to last a lifetime.
I agree with Tanal and Ms. Smith, in order to truly challenge the system and change things you have to have the ambition to do it, and Julia doesn't have the ambition to rebel on the large scale.
Yea she doesn't really know how to go about rebelling head on with the party. She seems that she is just living for herself and never really wants to change anything.
i agree with phillip. i think Julia is very short sighted, and doesn't realize that she really is helping to rebel against the party and Big Brother. Winston seems to think in the long term and rebels in order to help every one else.
The thing is, in 1984, the government controls everything, and they can even have control over thought. It seems like the government WOULD be able to control Winston and julia's love for each other. If they are caught, the governmant will do anything they can to make them disloyal to each other.
Smith-
I'm sure that there are others that remember, but like Winston, they are waiting for the others to come clean about it.
I completely disagree that with shauna. After enough "convincing" a person could make another person believe whatever they want.
Julia also is kind of rebelling for her own personal benefit, it makes her feel better about herself. Whereas Winston is rebelling for the good of the society.
paige ya i agree with you and Ms. Smith! we dont really know what she is rebelling but she is in her own way. As for Winston he wants to over take the Party full blown.
I agree with Brian, Julia is really not helping anything, she is just endangering herself.
I also think that Winston has more drive to fight because he actually knows what life is like without the controlling government and Big Brother where as Julia wants life a little better but doesn't know how much better it actually is because she wasn't around then to know for herself.
So why is Julia important in the book?
Does she show the reader the two types of rebels and those who act for themselves and those who act for others??
I don't think everyone remembers, because if they did, I think they would have found each other and bonded together already. Maybe some people remember, but not enough to do anything about it.
Emily-
I'm sure that Julia has the ambition. She just doesn't explicitly state it.
I think that shes doing it smarter than Winston. Shes doing it in a way that will guaruntee victory.
You are right Phil. That is seen in the movie Blood Diamond. The warlords convince the children to kill their own mothers and sisters.
They say that killing is good and that the gov is bad.
I think that Julia is important because she gives Winston more perspective and drive since she is frustrating him in a way.
Jberry, maybe it has Julia in the book to show what kind of rebellion is most successful. Whoever ends up overthrowing the Party and living will win, maybe it is like the moral of the story.
But if that is so shauna... then why is it Winston who can remember things... what makes him special?
I think Julia is just interested in having fun and entertaining herself. Winston is extrememly serious about what he wants to do because he is trying to be a hero and save the future.
I think Julia shows how impossible it really is for Winston to rebel. To him, she at first appears to be helpful, but in reality, she is sort of another sheep.
Jess that is a good point. I think Julia is here to show two different sides of the society that they live in; to show diversity.
i agree with shauna, but also i think that most people are afraid to tell what the remember because they arent supposed to, so they are afraid of the consequences.
I think that, like the old man, people only remember little things. The man only remembered little minute pieces of detail that didnt really help Winston. But the memories the man told Winston are personal memories that mean somthing to the old man. Winston however is looking for a more general memory of the past.
Like Anna said in the inner circle, Julia and Winston just represent different tyoes of rebellion.
*types
sorry about the typo
Shauna-
I think there might be many people who remember stuff but are not willing to risk or afraid of finding someone else who does. You also can't really talk to people because of the telescreens. Like Julia and Winston can't even talk in public because of fear or being caught.
I agree with adriana. Julia appears to be just another drone that likes to think she is rebelling, when really she is just a slight annoyance to the party. That is to say if she's even noticed at all.
paige-
But I'm not so sure if Winston's rebellion is better. He says that he wants to rebel and stuff.... but... has he yet? No, he's only done the "little things" that Julia does also. He has thought about challenging the system, but hasn't yet.
I think that they are afraid of the consequences if they tell what they remember, but also if they don't tell what they know they are afraid they are going to forget the past.
Jberry~
I think that Winston is the same as everyone else but he is just one of many that can think for himself and feels that there is something wrong with BB. He just has the nerve to do something about it. Are there more people that could possibly do the same thing?
That's a good point adriana. When Julia first came into Winston's life he had a lot of hope. I think he is starting to realize how unrealistic it is to try and rebel. Most people won't go along with him. Those who do will lose interest quickly.
Winston thought running away with his sisters chocolote and stealing his family's food starved his mom and sister to death.
Good point Adriana, but I think there might be more to Julia than we see right now.
She really puts things in perspective for Winston.
I also agree with phillip, Julia hasn't known anything but the party, so doesn't think that she can overthrow it and doesn't have much of a reason to. She just thinks that you can break the rules as long as you don't caught
Adriana, what do you mean? I am not disagreeing with you but do you think that Julia is actually slowing Winston down from challenging the system or helping him?
I think the fact that people remember little things shows that they are still human.
~~josh~~
I think the reason Julia is important in the book is because she opens a lot of doors for Winston. she makes him realize a lot more about what is really going on in the party and what people really think about the things that go on in hate week and with the bombs, and the eurasian soldiers. She also shows that some of the party member are still human. She shows Winston love, and her feelings, and she shares her life with him. It gives Winston courage to disobey the party more and more.
Alexd that was established a long time ago. Stay with the conversation.
I dont know if this is accurate, but this conversation of memory kind of reminds me of the Giver. Wasnt he in charge of taking the memories and pain of everyone in the society? I dont remember his name, but the kid from the Giver had a similar outlook on thier society like Winston because they remember the past.
paigen, In response to your question for Adrianna, I think that she is helping him because before he had no way to rebel, but with her he can. It is keeping him from doing something stupid to spite the Party.
I agree, Ardiana. As long as Winston remembers his family and his mother and those people that he loved at some point, he will still be human as long as he remembers love and can still love and be connected to other people of the pst and present.
Off of what Adriana said, they are still a little bit human, but the fact that they can't remember their own childhood shows how the government is slowly taking their "humanity" away.
Good point Jessica!
Winston just has ideas of rebelling against the Party but hasn't done anything yet. But everyone could have dreams of overthrowing the Party, nobody has the guts to act though.
I also think the proles just live; they live under any government. They are unable to realize how life was before.
Adriana-
I don't think that a memory can make a person human. If they were, wouldn't they do something about it sooner, rather than later? They're certainly about due for a rebellion. Hey! maybe thats what this book is about! *wink*
shauna-
It's almost as if Winston didn't have his brain washed away as much as everyone else. Because some people have the same abilities as Winston, but they don't remember. I know, maybe it is Winston's curiosity? Or, his memories could be because of his sister and mother's vaporization that was really tragic for him.
Alex, I agree with you and I like your enthusiasm!
I'm really interested to know something... Is humanity possible without love?
I'm really interested to know something... Is humanity possible without love?
Paige-
I definitely agree with you. The people are always told to follow the rules, and do what the BB says, so they are just too conformed to act against the BB and speak about what they remember.
alexm-they may not do anything about it because they are scared of what would happen to them.
Alex-
If you dont have memories, then who are you? You dont know whats right and whats wrong, because you have forgotten everything.
Does that make sense?
paige-
yeah. So, it takes a stronger person to act out. Do you think that Winston will? Personally, I don't think that Winston will be able to stand up, until he is put into a situation where he is forced to.
Kind of to add on to Jessica's well I think that WInston doesn't let the government and Big Brother get into his head because he knows better and he knows what he wants out of life, but many of the other people of the town don't know better and they let BB get into their heads.
Jess-
I agree with that
:)
Kimmy-
Yes, it can. We'd like to think not, but we can exist without love. It might not be fun, but we can certainly do it.
BUT. Who could control that?
This is kind of off of AlexM's comment, I wonder what Winston was like before the Revolution, sure we know about his family, but was he one of those kids at school that doesn't really do anything and don't think in depth, or if he was one of those Honors kids that do critical thinking during fishbowls! :)
kim-
im not really sure. i wouldnt went to have humanity without love. but i dont know how you could work without it.
Good question Kim!
I think humanity and love go hand and hand. I don't think you can have humanity without love because that wouldn't make sense. How could you be humane without having different feelings towards people? That just doesn't make sense to me.
I think that the proles won't rebel, because they live a content life. The government probably knew that the masses had to be happy so they could stay in power. The Party planned it out that way.
Chelsea, its alot like the discussion we had last week. Its like the dog who salivates when he hears the bell. I think the people have been essentially trained and just act like they are suppose to.
kim-
I don't think humanity is possible without love because if their wasn't love, the world wold pretty much be intolerable. No one would have friends or help anyone or anything. This is just like in 1984- before Winston had Julia and her love, his life was unbearable and he really hated life. Now that he has her, he feels more motivation to live.
The inner circle question is interesting.
What do you guys think makes a prole, or a normal citizen?
shauna-
i agree with you about what you said to alex about the memories :D
Jess-
I think that maybe Julia and Winston will gain the strength and the need together to act out, but maybe not anytime soon.
Also maybe O'Brien wants to talk to Winston about the same sort of thing, and thats why he invited Winston to his house.
Why do you think O'Brien invited Winston to his house?
kim-
usually when people procreate theyt are in love. In a way, love is humanity, so it is not possible.
alex, shauna, etc.--
Winston seems to be thinking about the simplest form of humanity. The most basic way to be a human is to rely on emotion and to be loyal to each other. This includes the gestures like hugging a child. For that you don't need memory.
Good point Jessica, I know that Winston wants to rebel but I don't think he would ever be put into a situation where it would be life and death. Until he is actually face to face with Big Brother and has a lot of followers, but otherwise I don't think Winston will rebel.
jess-
i think the social classing of the proles might have something to do with the wealth part of it...
adam
I agree with that, i think that the Party is trying to keep groups of people happy because you would need a group to overthrow the government, but if they are keeping the mass happy then there is a less chance of the party and gov. getting overthrown.
Shauna-
I guess your right, but it doesn't mean they aren't human. It means that they're not mentally there. I guess its a technicaility issue.
Brian- thank you. I try
christa-
the world would still be tolerable because we wouldnt know of a thing called friends because there was no love it wouldnt be developed in the first place. we wouldnt know the difference.
i don't think you necessarily need love in order to have humanity, maybe just some form of affection, however mild.
Adam, I don't get what you're saying about the masses of people and the government knowing that they'd be happy.
chelsea-
i agree but also it has to do with your parents. because if your parents are proles then its pretty much impossible for you to become a member of the inner party.
Josh, what about Katherine, who didn't love Winston, but wanted to procreate because it was her duty.
Yeah alex, definitely a technicality. Human in physical state but not in mental and emotional.
Paige-- I think that as of right now, Winston is what you say he is, but it is like Montag in F451 he starts out small and then makes something big happen. I think that is what will happen to Winston in this book.
Brian-
Thanks. Thats pretty much what I was trying to say.
:D
Declan I agree, I dont know if you truly have to have love, but u certainly need more affection then just beinf "comrades".
good point ends.
so your pretty much born into your social class.
brian-
true dat. :D
Endsley-
You are right about that, but I guess I meant that people can't do everything theselves, and sometimes you need someone who loves you to come alongside you and help. Without love, society wouldn't be nearly as successful because no one would encourage each other or help one another.
Adam, it can go on for a while, but when love is completely gone, there is no creation and no life. It is kind of hard to explain and you could make life happen without love, I just think that eventually , there will be love.
chelsea-
I agree with you in the fact that Julia and Winston are now dependant on eachother. Maybe, their love for eachother will be the one thing that makes them rebel.
I think that like Julia, O'Brien sees Winston's weakness and understands that Winston is ready or contemplating rebellion.
According to google, humanity isn't really possible without love.
humanity means the condition of being human. When I searched human, it came up with:
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice
One of the definitions that really grabbed me was the idea that you were human if you show the characteristics that separate you from an animal... things such as kindness and compassion.
Brian-
That makes a lot more sense now. I guess that's what I was trying to say. You must have feelings of affection to be humane.
Winston thought that the party can make you say anything but they can not make you not love another.
Emily, are you suggesting that Winston will run away with hobos? Just kidding. But I do agree with you. I think that like Montag, Winston's personal rebellion will grow into something much larger.
The whole subject of betrayal kind of reminds me about the idea of humanity. If Winston and Julia can keep from betraying each other by forgetting their love, maybe they won't be human.
Brian and Declan--
I agree with both of you, but I also think that the people that are more focused on rebelling against the party and the BB are the ones that will have more love in their lives. Everyone else that is a true "follower" just looks at it as a "duty to the party" just how katharine looked at it.
I liked Adriana's comment in the inner circle. So far Winston was completely wrong about Julia, do you think his instinct about O'Brien will be wrong too. Do you think that O'Brien will betray him.
Thanks for that Kimmy
Alexd please try to stay on topic!!
Adam & Josh-
I think that Josh is right. Everyone wants to feel love and no one wants to feel lonely. Sooner or later, this gvt will have to fall just because of the lonliness and lack of love.
Josh-
Do you think that teen pregnancies result from love? No. They just happen.
One does not have to love to have sex, as disturbing as that may sound.
Kim-
That is an interesting definition. I think that the Party is really more like a bunch of animals. They don't really show compassion, and their "kindness" is really a disguised way of manipulating the people. Winston is trying not to become an animal by loving Julia.
Well, i doubt that Winston will run away with hobos... maybe with Goldstein though...
Speaking of goldstein, is he real? or is he just another enemy that the government inveted to control people?
Thanks Jess
But Kim I think that even animals can have kindness and compassion for one another. I still stand by my thought that you don't need true LOVE for humanity. But you still need some sort of relationship that is deeper than comrades.
I don't thin the gov't will fall because of te lonliness and lack of love. i think we've found out that any emotion like love or lonliness has been brainwashed out of these people and replaced with hate.
brian--are you sure Winston's rebellion will work out as well as Montag's? Maybe he'll just die alone in the Ministry of Love. Kind of sad and not a very conventional end, but it would be interesting.
The third point of kimmy's definitions is interesting.
Do humans only think of the negative? And the bad?
This can be related to our semester project.
Alexm, my point is that there is never going to be a time when there is sex completely without love in everybody. At least i dont think there will be.
Jess--
I agree with you, and I think that O'Brien was contemplating rebeillion as well, and he sees it in Winston. He might be thinking that they have a better chance at succeeding if they work together...?
Emily-
I think that Goldstein might be a fake person. You can't really prove anything in this society since the past and present are constantly being changed. I am not even sure that Big Brother is real. They both might just be tools to manipulating people into hating or loving a cause.
Winston will be wrong about O'Brien as well, he was wrong about Julia. Why would an inner party member want to overthrow the party anyways. They have it all.
Emily, that is a good thought about Goldstein. Julia thinks that the war isn't real and that the rocket bombs are actually our own government. Could Goldstein have been vaporized and he is now just sort of a puppet that is used to have everyone hate one thing in common.
No problem josh.
:]
I was wondering the same thing Emily. What's the deal with Goldstein? When, if ever, do we meet him?
Josh-
this also brings up the topic of stem cell reseach. You can create a human without intercourse. Not entirely ethical from some perspectives, but in times like that stuation, one must do what they gotta do.
brian-
What I mean by animal, is the instincts that they have. Kill for food, eat your young so you can survive things such as that. How do animals in your opinion show kindness and compassion?
That's a good point Jess about how humans think and making the connection to our semester projects
Brian-- I agree with you... somewhat. You may not need true love as in the kind between a husband and wife, but you need the love between a parent and child, brother and sister. compassion is not enough you need a deeper feeling than that.
There is a saying that without good there can be no evil, so without love, how can there be hate?
Emily that is very possible. I believe Goldstien is ficticious only because I dont trust the Patry when it comes to anything. We see how they change the past and we see how they are constantly at "war". They even change their allies and enemy in war almost instantly. Julia also made a good point about how the bombings could be from the Party itself. Goldstien could very well just be a made up character, created soley for the purpose to tick the people off and unite them through their anger.
declan--
good point. It think hate is emotional outlet the gov. gives. Sorry to be so unromantic, but I think hate is a much more powerful emotion than love.
Paige-
That is really interesting.
I never thought of that. It's interesting that the war is kind of in a stalemate. No country would end the war b/c it is so important to the gvt.
They can procreate and even live without love, but it still might not be human. Humanity is the proles but people in the party all have that inner instinct to be human.
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