Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 7:58 AM
Let's get this party started!
dude change ur pic...
I'm with Maria
Phair is phoul and phoul is phair...
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I was confused on what some of Beatty's quotes. It seemed to me that he was just throwing random quotes at Montag both to confuse him and convince him that books were bad. Is that right?
The ear thing of Faber's ...pretty cool technology...
I agree. Technology is great. When used correctly, of course.
I have another question. Why do they not consider C-sections having children?
it is pretty crazy how they don't love their children, they just had them so that the earth's population won't decrease.
Ya, the ear thing is very neat, though when you think about it it's quite simple. Basically it's just a really small walkie-talkie.
I think they did. I didnt see an instance of them not.
What causes Montag to loose his temper? He seemed to be a fairly calm person before he yelled at Mildred's friends.
I think the fact that they do not love their kids fits in perfectly with the society.
I agree with Kenna. Children are objects that are detrimental to your health but necessary for species survival. They don't love them even though they were children once.
Why do they call the fire truck the Salamander?
Kenna, I agree. It makes them seem very mechanical.
I agree, Kenna, the fact that no one loves their children anymore relates back to the idea that there is no more love in the world.
I thought that it was weird how Montag trusted Beatty. He's a fireman and he shouldn't be trusted when he knows that you have books.
What do you guys think of Montag having anxiety about his hands on p. 105? To me, that was huge because he is thinking about how his hands and how they are "gloved in blood". Just like how Macbeth was contemplating how his hands are covered in blood as a result of his guilt. Montag is guilty about keeping the books, just like Macbeth was about killing Duncan.
I think Montag is going crazy with everything. I think he has gotten to the point where he can no longer stand what is happening in the world.
Karib-you have a point. Maybe Beatty really is just trying to confuse Montag, or maybe he is testing Montag to see how much Montag has read, or knows.
Hannah, I think the reason that he yelled was due to the fact that he was overwehlmed. The fact that they only judge people based on superficial qualities irritated him, and he was mad that they wern't having real conversation, they were just filling the air with words.
I think, as Faber said, Beatty is "muddying the waters."
Yeah, what was with Mrs. Bowles not loving her kids? I thought that was really weird. And why does she only see them three times a month? Are they away at boarding school or something?
ben-- i totally agree, he cannot take his society's extreme denial. he needs someone to understand that there is more to life than just being happy and peaceful all the time.
Laura, He knows that it was his hands that committed the deed. He can't blame anyone else on his actions and it scares him.
I have another question for the blog. There is a mention of the Book of Job form the Bible on page 93. What is the significance of that? For those of you who don't know, Job is about a guy who has loads of horrible stuff happen to him. He loses his family, his property and gets really sick. This whole book is Job receiving advice from his fiends. One of main points is the fact that Job stayed faithful through the whole experience.
I think one of the things that the people in the center were talking about was boarding school. I think they are off at some sort of distant school.
Two of my questions were these: Can we truly call Montag a hero of the story? And, will Montag's impulsiveness be his "fatal flaw?"
What is the reference emilyl?
Erin said that maybe her kids were at a boarding school. Does anybody think that that is the only type of school. It seems to me that Clarisse was the only "child" present in their area.
annad: Have we even established Montag as a hero, much less a tragic one? He is certainly the central character.
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I agree with all of the comments about the children in this story...it seems like hardly any of the families near Montag have children---or at least children living with them. And Clarisse was an exception to this, as well. It was weird to hear all of Mildred's friends talk about how terrible children are and how they dont care about how their children are, and how they dont care about how their children dont care about them: their parents.I think that people may not like kids is because having children are like a sort of commitment, and I think commitment is one thing that most people in this story are afraid of. They just want to watch their viewing screens and they dont want to have to think, or do, anything that takes a whole lot of effort.
So are there no kids in there society? Are there wars constantly going on?
Emily, in the back of my book there is an interview with Ray Bradbury. One of his predominating themes is that his subconscious led a lot of his writing. He said that he didn't realize the signifigances of the names Montag and Faber until far after he created him. He also mentioned that he thought of a random book of the Bible, Job, and later he realized how appropriate this was.
Having kids is hard work. You have to take care of them. It is a lot of work and a big responsibility. Not like I have firsthand experience, though.
emily-- i think that it is a bit of foreshadowing, he is going to have a hard time following through with his firehouse plans, he is going to definitely be receiving support and advice from Faber, just like Job suffered, Montag is, but Job also recieves so much for his perserverance, so you see the foreshadowing??
Hannah~ As to your question on how Montag looses his temper, I think that he just got so fed up with how the women don't understand or care about the things he does. He doesn't like how they just let events go by and accept them, whereas Montag can't let them go by with out contemplating why those events happen and how it affects him. He has feelings that they don't have, or they at least haven't discovered those feelings yet.
Emily, I think Faber is trying to send Montag a message. Because of this entire ordeal, Montag could loose everything; his wife, his house, his job and maybe even his life. I think Faber is trying to get him to keep the faith and realize that there is more to life.
I agree with karib. HE understands now the importance of books, and HE has knowledge, while THEY do not, and THEY are kind of ignorant. I think it is frusturation that THEY are not on his level. I think it might be like talking to someone with a lesser vocabulary than you, one who doesn't understand the words that you use everyday, one who is your own age.
Emily: I think that could be symbolic of Montag having terrible things happen to him like troubles in his marriage and Clarisse's death. He needs help from his friends. Beatty gave him help, but it was bad help, just like how Beatty's advice at the end of the Hearth and the Salamader isn't good. So he needs to trust Faber like Job needed to trust God.
I think wars are pretty common. They talk about starting and winning two atomic wars.
Ben, I agree that kids are definetly a lot of work. I'm probably an example of that, but don't many people, at least now, people generally think that the "joy" that having kids brings outweighs the work.
Off Kari's question about why the consider C sections not having kids. C sections take the kid out off you, so they don't have to go throught the actual birth pains.
Ben- having kids is hard work. But how do the grow and learn? As soon as they are born they aren't sent off to boarding school are they?Whats wrong with this whole scene??
On page 94, Mrs. Phelps starts talking about her husband, Pete, who went into the war. She talks about how the army told her that the war will only last 48 hours and Pete would be back for a week. It is strange to me that she seems to believe everything that the government tells her. Why is this?
Ben, to answer my own question and hopefully make it clearer, I don't think that we can see Montag as a hero. He almost seems to stumble along in his quest for the old ways. He does not truly know what he wants until fairly late in the book. He does not know how to attain his goal, and he lets his emotions lead him through. If we say that a story's "hero" is the character that leads the way and acts as an example to all of the characters around him, Montag is not a hero.
he feels he has known faber a long for he is so similar to montag in their views. if he can turn to someone else that he can relate to, someone with a similar cause he can feel safe with him and therefore it makes faber sort of a father figure, who he would know a long time.
Humans give a lot of parental care to their young compared to other animals. Humans give live birth, they breast feed, and they are raised for years. Other animals, though, just lay eggs and run. So humans are kind of becoming like "lower" life forms.
to lindsays--- i think that Montag trusts Faber, Faber understands the world, he doesn't sugar coat things, he tells it how it is. Montag,as I said before, needs someone understand the way he views the world. Both of them together brains, and braun.
Does that mean they are cowardly in the fact that they are scared of the pain involved in natural childbirth? Could this be the result of their fear of the government?
Ben~ But do they really win the wats? How do they know that the wars are really going on? If the government controls what they do, might they also control the wars? They might just be telling the people that they won the wars so the people have a feeling that their government is working.
karib: I dont think it is fear of the government, but love of ease of use and convenience.
If the government is the only people giving out the information, then there is nothing else for the people to hear about. They will believe anything that they hear, they don't have anything else for them to believe.
laurab: There are people in the military, and they must come home and tell them what happen.
In my previous post, I meant wars, not wats. Sorry.
Ben, I think the refrence has a lot to do with the message of both of them. To Job, cursing GOd is the worse thing of all, unimagneable. I think Faber is foreshadowing the fact that Montag is going to come VERY close to do something unthinkable, possibly stepping over the line and do it.
The three of them, Clarisse, Faber and Montag realize that people need to be different in the society and so they feel a connection to each other because they are united in a cause. Otherwise, with no diversity the supposed utopia will become corrupt and become a dystopia.
As children, we are influenced by our surroundings and our family. These influences create a mold and contribute to how we mature and what kind of people we become. Is it possible that Montag's parents were different and created an environment that influenced? Did they plant the seeds that would lead Montag to realize he was not happy and cause him to rebel? Was Clarisse the factor that brought out this dormant characteristic.
This branches off of Laura's question. Is their definition of "win" different? Does that mean complete and total annihilation using nuclear weapons? We know that they raise their children to be very competitive, as we've seen that they sports in school and drag racing is almost encouraged.
Kari, I don't think the fear of childbirth has anything to do with fear of government. These people live in a society that is obsessed with happiness and pleasure and jolliness and all of that... stuff... I think that childbirth symbolizes pain, which is the same as unhappiness to these people.
erin-- exactly, they don't know any different, they have been brought up to watch parlor walls, and retain useless information. Montag's society is kind of like a baby, it takes what it gets, and only knows what it has been taught to do.
Erin--This leads back to when Beatty said that children were "snatched from the cradle;" children learn the most at a young age, and so the government can essentially get everyone to think whatever they want.
Has anyone else noticed that there have been several references to wine in this book? Is so, why is that?
hannahs: it is certainly possible. We cannot know for sure, but it very well maybe. I think that somehow, however they may have happened, childhood events shaped Montag.
Annad, I think I agree that Montag doesnt fit the common mold of a hero, always, but I do think that in some ways in this story he could be considered a hero. Even if he isnt the most heroic or isnt even an innocent or good character, I think that the way this book is written causes the reader to relate with Montag in a way which makes him seem like a hero. He is the character that the reader learns most about and we understand Montag more-so than most of the other characters in the book. The reader tends to, then, beleive that Montag is the "good guy". Therefore, I think that Montag could well be thought of as a hero in a way where he is trying to expose the truth and help other people to see it...And I agree with Benh too, that Montag seems sort of like a tragic hero...
Benh...I agree, however they are not widely broadcast. I wonder what the rest of the world thinks of this country...starting and winning multiple atomic wars.I think that Faber is also the symbolisim of friendship...I just mentioned this...
mphair: I bet that they hate the country. Despise it and loathe it as the big bully that no one can stand up to, with the ignorant citizens. That is what a lot of people think of American already.
Hannah- great question, we've definitly seen how family has impacted Clarisse. I think his parents had been in a regular society before they were corrupted and maybe, without realizing it, they did plant a seed that Montag's smart brain had to build upon.
Hannah, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but to me, wine represents sort of high society and sophistication. Is this kind of a facade they are trying to display? Do they was to look intelligent and classy even though they arn't.
Ben~ Not telling their families about the wars might part of their job description. They might have to make it up, it might come with the job. Just like how Montag cannot bring a book home and read it, the service men and women might have to make what happens in the wars up.
Michelle--Do we really know how the rest of the world is? Couldn't they potentially be worse?
Madison, I agree completely.
Ben, but would the people in the wars want to tell their family what is really happening in the wars? if they are winning than they would tell their family, if they were losing they also probably would tell their family that they were winning, or they wouldn't return. Also, the people in this society are basically brain washed by technology and the government would put on the parlor walls that they were winning the wars and the people actually in the war would think that just their part was bad in the war and so they would think they actually were doing well in the war.
laurab: It is possible, but in my opinion not likely.
tomr: What do you mean by worse?
So if children learn at a very young age then what do they do when they are older? What kind of jobs are in there society? There are so many machines that take over jobs is there anything left for people to do. Does everyone sit at home and watch the parlor walls??
Tom, I think there was one part where they talked about hearing rumors about different cultures and how people were starving, but I don't know where it is.
Hannah~ I hadn't noticed that, but it is a very good point. Does the repetition of wine symbolize the use of material things to attain happiness, or what appears to be happiness?
erinl: I think that a lot of people do just watch the parlor walls. And they just take generic jobs. Army, fireman, banker maybe. Nothing intersting, at least in my opinion/
hannah~nice point, ya I have noticed references to wine in the book, usally next to water. Maybe this has something to do with when in the Bible, Jesus turned water to wine. Maybe it's saying how a society that is bland and bare, like water, can be turned into something thick and rich, like wine.
Erin, I think that is what they do. I think they might have an occasional teacher, and Mildred had been an apprentice to a company that made the Seashell.
To add to my last point, wine creates drunkenesss, which feels (to the person who is drinking) like happiness.
When I say worse, I mean that other governments could be even more oppressive and thought-controlling. Very little about the world outside the "bubble" is given to us.
Erin,i think most of the population does just sit at home and watch the parlor walls, i think that the firemen are a bit better off, they have access to the books should they slightly shift away from the normal view of society, like Montag.
Ben-You have a good point on the feelings toward the country...It really is quite sad that people think such of us, and WE haven't started (yet) MULTIPLE atomic wars...
I agree with what Ayla said about Guy and Mildred's relationship. It doesn't seem like people think enough to really connect with one another, because the wife just sits around the house and watches the 'parlor,' and the husband goes to wirk all day.
Good point, also, Maria.
anna-- good one, i think that this society is totally materialistic. they are worried about how much they have, and what they do with it. I think that that is why Clarisse was or is such an oddity. She is creative, and not so worried about material things, she is more concerned with the world around her.
Going with Riley's comment, what physcological effect does the government telling everyone their winning have on the soldiers? Do they start to actually win because they believe they are winning overall? Maybe the army hasn't lost a war because of this effect.
Has there ever been a reference in the book to who is actually in charge of the government? I cant remember----Do they ever say who exactly is in charge, like a President?
Off the idea going on in the life dicussions about crying if someone dies, I the average person doesn't really care for their spouse, they aren't like many couples today. They are more like the families in the Giver by Lois Lowry. They are family units, they don't love each other. I don't have exact quote, but at one point the Montag like character asks his parents if they love him. They respond by saying that is the wrong question. He should ask whether they are proud of him.. This is are prefect example as family life in 451.
I think that if there were someone to stand up and decided to tell everyone that they should read and that books are bad and that their society is screwed up that they would listen. If they only have one place to get information from, and then one person comes out then what kind of an impact would he have on the people?
Tom, that is a very scarry idea. We know how bad their society is. I think the other societies are just different. Nobody in any of the societies is probably happy, just for different reasons. The Americans are just bland and controlled, while people in other parts are starving.
ty~I KNOW!!! it drives me crazy that they just get married because it seems like the "cool" thing to do. They dont really care about anyone else besides themselves and I think the only reason Mildred hasn't "kicked Montag out the door" is because he's her moneyman. I also cant believe how they treat their kids, like they're just some mutt to kick around.
Commenting on Smith's comment about Itchy and Scratchy from the Simpsons, I think that is a perfect representatiion. It's mindless entertainment that keeps them occupied for hours.
No one knows emotion, not in any way, shape or form. It is amazing that they cannot handle each emotions, let alone their own. Notice how Mildred didn't have a clue what to do with Mrs. Phelps when she was crying?
Also, the government may have painted that view of other countries being worse off in order to keep people from moving from their society, thinking that they will be better off staying where they are when other cultures are probably just different thinkers and so naturally the government of this country would want to keep them small. If that makes sense.
Talking about kindregarten and what they learn, I wonder what they learn in kindergarten, how to turn on the parlo wall, how to change channels?
Kari, that's what we'd like to think, but do we really know?
Tom, you have a really good point. The rest of the world may be totally impoverished, or they may be even more "dead to the world." YET INSPITE OF ALL THE TIME THEIR PARLOR WALLS AND SUCH TAKE UP, THEY STILL HAVE TIME TO MAKE WAR?!!?!!
madison~ya, when the women are talking about the election and President Noble and how he looks good so they will vote for him, I think there is a government, but the people have no idea what goes on in it, they're pretty much clueless about the rest of the world outside their little bubbles.
haha yeah I bet that is what the kinder-gardeners do. I wonder if they even have a school system that is set up like ours?
Maria, Mildred also hasn't kicked montag out the door because how would her neighbors view her? they would pry asking why he left and she could not reveal that he kept books in her house. She would lose the little amount of face she has left.
Do you think they even have a kindergarten? If they do, I bet it is completely different than that of today. I wonder what they teach them. Probably not sharing, respect, individuality, etc.
Tom, you're right, that's just what I think it would be like.
Madison: they say there is a president (President Noble)on page 96 when they are talking about politics and voting.On the voting note, did you notice how they picked their president based on looks and habits, not ideas? They're all talking about how the little guy was fat and ugly and twitchy and he picked his nose, and Mr. Noble was all 'noble', so they voted for him.
But the parlor walls bring them happiness, or at least they think so. And violence is so commonplace, war is probably a rather common experience. Similar to how we as a society have become desensitized to grisly, bloody, gruesome, macabre, horrific murders by overexposure to them.
kenna~ya nice one, they just cant THINK. I noticed that when they talk, they repeat the same thing over and over again, and its so bland, I can see why Montag got so frustrated. I wonder if he ever talked like that, maybe he didnt and thats what Clarisse meant when she called him different.
Kari----I agree about Itchy and Scratchy is just something to keep people occupied...but that is also sort of frightening...we have lots of things today, like some tv shows, that are pretty much mindless, or even pointless, that are sometimes just created to keep people occupied and "happy"...
maria-- good point, once again it goes back to the materialism, they don't care that someone is a good person, a desirable candidate, all they care about is how the person looks, and on how they carried themselves. APPEARANCE VS REALITY!
the little kindergartens don't learn sharing or individuality. Respect is because you have to respect your elders and all that great stuff.
With all of the suicide, should they actually just start LETTING people kill themselves, to let them die?Yes, that does sound cruel...
So going back to what Smith said about Itchy and Scratchy...It seems like in moviesand even in real life little kids find it funny to see other people get hurt. This reminds me of the people in Fahrenheit 451, because like Clarisse said, kids just drive around and kill each other, and the adults talk about people getting killed in war and committing suicide. Although this is definitely happening, no one really cares unless it happens to someone they know or someone close to them.
Michelle, i don't think that they initiated the war but really the other cultures started the war with them. maybe like times today, the other countries probably threatened this society because it's like us today, we have to end Terrorism and Communism in other countries, we have to pry into other countries business and "fix" them. This situation probably occured here.
riley~she can't think. Her friends dont think. Mrs. Bowles has gone through like three husbands and her friends dont think bad of her. Even when Montag points it out, they dont realize what it is because it just seems normal to them.
Talking about ingorance in 451, they have become so ingnorant, that they don't care when people die. To an extent this what happens in America, we don't really care that people ared ying in 3rd world countries. Do think with book coming out just after WWII, when Europe was war torn.
Madison, I agree completely. I also think that's how the movie industry is today. Think of all the movies in which people are mindlessly killed. It scares me because that could be a signal that our society is moving in that direction.
I agrre with Ayla's comment, about nicer looking poeple with less mean commericals, they tend to have not only higher approval ratings, but lower disapproval ratings.
I think also the good looks represents the mindless, "Oh, don't worry, we'll take care of you" frame of mind, where what lies below the surface doesn't matter. Of course, the other candidate represents the true happiness people are turning down. So, through electing the appearance candidate, do the people really want to think?
Going along with the elections ideas, I think that having elections are just a popularity contest. Check out our school elections.
Maria, but still they may pry into the reason of why they broke up, it's public knowledge that Mrs. Bowles's husbands have commited suicide, been killed, and some other thing. But anyways i still think that the normal view of this society is to have a husband and because of this view i don't think Mildred would kick Montag out, because of the money income, and because of the societies views.
Off of Maddy's comment, the wine and the parlor walls can also be very addicting.
The most egregious offence in all of these political ads is that many are somewhat fradulent or even flat-out lies. Unfortunately, as they are the easiest for people to digest, they are the most effective.
wow emily, slow down your typing there.
I agree with the fact that school elections are sometimes geared towards popularity and not towards qualifications.
It is a little scary to think that we vote on issues and elect leaders based on their appearence. Looks can be very decieving and I have found that some of the most amazing people have an appearence that could be decieving.
kenna~so maybe that also kinda contributes to why they got rid of books. When you read, you have to use your brain to make an image, but when you watch TV, theres already an image for you. It is all materialistic, theres nothing that goes deeper than the surface.
Going off of the fire, water, and wine comment: Fire and water are extremes of both their origins. Wine is a delicious taste of flavors, a balance of pleasant tastes. Someimes, not that I know, wine can seem to solve all problems. But also, it can go too far, and if you drink a lot, it can be too much. On the wine bottles, there are descriptions of the wine: "... a taste of berries with essences of dark chocolate and cherry wood". Wine is a balance of water and grapes(and other stuff). Once Montag and Faber are together, they will balance out their ideas. Of course, they might go too far, and destroy what they originally set out to perfect. A description of a bottle of Montag and Faber wine might be "...a taste of thought, with essences of education and caring". ~Sorry this is so long, I almost finished my post and then I accidently deleted. Bravo on my part. :) And then I kept getting more ideas.~
Riley~You have a good point, but Wine...Ok. back to what I was going to say about fire and water...Wine is partly made from water..and Maria is saying how Jesus performed his miricle, and yet...As far as I can tell (Ive never had it!!!!) wine has a firey taste...
riley~yep good point
Sorry I'm such a clutz...
Erin, I agree with you 110%, people vote for their friends and the person with the most friends wins. On a side note not to many people care. Can anyone name all 5 freshman officers and 5 executive officers?
President-John MooreVP Lauryn-ShrockSecretary-Maddy Gannonpublicity officer-Keirsten PetersonI don't know- Matt something.That's only because I'm friends with Lauryn Shrock and most of the people are from Powell.
Does anybody else find it odd how they keep cursing using God, and yet they don't read the Bible, but they make connotations pertaining to religion?
michelle- ya, and water is pretty much the only thing that can get rid of fire. So what does this say about wine? Is it that because water is so easy to get, like being ignorant is so much easier than thinking, and wine is more expensive, is Bradbury trying to say that changing into our kind of society would be really hard to do?
Congrulations, Erin. You are right 4/5 are from Powell, intersting...
That's a really good point, Maria! I think that the idea of wine and water is a really important one in this book, though it is one that tends to be missed. It's pretty neat that we all find it so important.
I was just studying for the quiz tomorrow and reread the part where Faber was talking to Montag. Faber says, "'Do you know why books such as this are so important? Because they have quality. And what does the word quality mean? To me it means texture. This book has pores.'" This is an incredibly important quote. Basically it sums up what Montag has been searching for. The reason why Montag clings to books is that books contain the answer to what he has been looking for: understanding of human thought. In saying that the book has "pores," Faber is saying that the books have a deep insight into human nature.Also, what is the role of fear of death in this book? There seems to be a lot of fear in the normal people of Montag's time. This is evident in Mildred's avoiding talking about Clarisse's death. Is this an important theme?
Anna: I don't know if this society is afraid of death but I do think that the value of life in general is not important to the people of this society. Clarisse talked aout how kids her age killed each other. The book also mentions several wars they have started with other nations and no one seems to care. Also, I think Mildred wasn't avioding the conversation about Clarisse's death, I think she just didn't care because Clarisse was nothing to her, just another body taking up space.
Hannah--Perhaps life lacks value because everyone's existence is so empty and meaningless?
Dude Tom I love ya buddy.... but DORA?? Come now. Unless your trying to upstage Daniel change it PLEASE!!
Emily,90% of Powell came over to Arapahoe. It's not suprising to me that they ended up winning, they know so many people...I think that the other person is Matt Okazoki (sp??) I think that he might be treasure.
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