Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 8:00 AM
Hi,I enjoyed your discussion so much the other day that I'm back to see it in again. Just so you know, I am a teacher educator living in Delaware.I last read Fahrenheit 451 in about 1968 when I was a junior in high school. It was not an assigned reading, but something I read for my own enjoyment. I just read the plot summary again online and am struck by how timeless this is. The theme of banning books and restart the information was a hot one when I was busy protesting the Vietnam War. It certainly seems just as apt given what we know about the Iraq weapons of mass destruction.I wonder how many of you have read Orwell's 1984 and Huxley's Brave New World. When I was directing my own reading as a teenager, these three books all were on my list at about the same time.Projecting this into the future some of you may be interested in the flash video Epic 2014. .I'll be listening in! Thanks for inviting me.Pat
Hi Pat-- Obviously we didn't do Fishbowl today. We will be doing it tomorrow and on Friday, so go ahead and join in!
Hi Pat! Tomorrow will be the fish bowl, so join in!
Alright, let's get started:What part of the poem made Mrs. Phelps cry?
annaw-the entire thing i think...shes not the most emotionally stable person to be moved by such a thing.
Anna I agree with alexm, the whole poem.
anna-I think it's just the fact that she thinks he's breaking the law and it's the first time that she's ever heard something being read. Nothing like this has ever happened to her.
was she really moved by it? or was she just confused? Why did she cry over it?
annaw~ I don't know what made Mrs.Phelps cry in the poem. I guess it was just overwhelmming to her. It was a little confusing!
yes, when sara posts her comment, i will agree with her
Has Beatty known all along that Montag has been hiding books? Is he burning down his house as a test to Montag's loyalty, or to punish him for the crime?
i also agree with alex. she's not used to the way that the poem made her feel.
kathrynt~I think she was confused and overwhelmmed, and that led her to cry.
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Also, she knows that she is breaking the law so she might be afraid of the consequences.
kathryn-both i think. i think it made her feel a way that she had never felt before, but she wasn't sure why. the feelings confused her.
nice picture shauna...hahai have a question...who is that poem by? It might be a possibility that Bradbury just put one of his own because he couldn't find any else...??
I don't think Mrs. Phelps really understood the symbolism of the poem, but she was just a little overwhelmed and scared because I think she heard how "ignorant armies clash by night" and how the poem kind of talked about dark things and how the world had no joy.
sarah~i think that beatty hasn't known all along that montag had the books, but i think that he has known for a while. he did send the mechanincal hound to go and search aroung montags house to try and find something out. also, when he came to see how mintag was doing when he was sick, i think that he had a hint that montag was hinding something.
I though it was really interesting to see what an effect poetry had on the women, i mean mrs. phelps started crying and panicing, and Mrs. Bowels said she would never go back to Montag's house. It shows you how use to happiness this society is and how even the slightest thing out of the ordinary can send them out of control.
alex-its a possibility. Bradbury wrote a lot of stuff so he could have written the poem so it would apply more to what was going on.
alexm~The poem is by Matthew Arnold.
I agree with declan. I think that Beatty was probably suspicious, but he wasn't positive until he saw at Montag's house.Do you think the hound knew that Montag had books? Is that why it would growled at him?
Blood is weird... its pretty trivial when one thinks about it, but it has a large amount of symbolism in the books we have read. Also what Alee just said...people wear thier guilt on their hands...
alex~ i dont know who the poem is by, but good point. i would have never thought about that, but it is a possibility...
I agree with briang and also, they are so used to being "happy" that something that brings thought overwhelms them
crista~how do you know that the poem is by him??
OHH ok thanks Christa...how did you find that out?
sarah,I think that Beatty did have some idea that he had books. Because their whole conversation that one day when he had the book under his pillow, i think Beatty was trying to get Montag to confess. Also Mildred isnt really on Montags side so she could have said something.
Like a lot of people are saying, I think that Beatty knows Montag has books, he is just trying to get a confession.
It almost seems like Montag's hands have a mind of their own. Has Montag gone in so deep that he just commits actions unconsciouly, not really knowing why he is doing what he is doing, but doing that hting anyways.
I agree with the hands thing that aleea said. Do they really think that washing their hands will get rid of the guilt?
I think that Mrs. Phelps may have actually listened to the poem, and then all of the sudden it made her feel-I wonder if it is so powerful to her that it affects her a lot-or maybe it was just too many feelings?
Beatty set the hound to Montags house, to warn him of somehitng to come.
I was confused about the part on page 103 where Montag was talking about him and the old man(Faber) becoming one person. And the water and fire becoming wine. WHat does this mean? Do you think it is forshadowing something? Can someone help make some sense out of it for me please?
alexm~I read f451 last year and I read the whole poem.
chels,she probably just used technology!!!:]
I agree with shauna, they never have to think in there their society. So when something thought provoking comes along it overwhelms them so much they don't know what to do with all the thought.
Ya i agree with chelsea, i believe that Beatty knew he had at least one book and suspected he had others. The first time Montag started to have problems with the hound, he was acting very nervous and when he talked to Beatty about it, i think that Beatty got the impression that he was hiding somthing. Then when Montag was sick, he knew he had at least one book. If Beatty had made the hound kind of track Montag then Beatty would have suspected him much earlier because the Hound started to boter Montag much earlier in the book.
I think that Mildred doesn't have enough brain power to go against Montag. She is an ignorant, relatively innocent character who doesn't know any better
shauna~i think that it is really hard to get rid of guilt. maybe they are so sick of the guilt anad they want to get rid of it so bad that they will do anything to get rid of it. Maybe washing your hands is the first thing that comes to mind, and so that is what they try first.
Didn't Montag ask Beatty how long a fireman could keep the book? Wouldn't that have totally given it away?
kathryn,i think they are talking about how they need to work together to get their plan done. They are opposites (like fire and water) and so they need to come together to make wine, or to carryout their plan. Im not sure though.
alexm~the poem is by a man named Matthew Arnold. However, i dont think who wrote the poem is of importance, but the poem is saying is instead. Why did Bradbury choose that poem? What ideas is he trying to get through with it?
fire and water makes wine??
I think Beatty knew that Montag was guilty once he saw him because he could tell Montag was guilty by his body launguage
I agree with brian. Montag wasn't exactly discreet with his questions. he almost came out and said "i have a book, how long can i keep it?" so Beatty probably had a pretty good idea what Montag was up to.
Do you think that sometimes we are like Mrs. Bowles, Mrs. phelps and Mildred when we elect our leaders? I think many times people just look at presidential candidates and look at their appearance- if they are good looking, or if they are strong looking. A lot of times a candidate's politics and beliefs seem to become less important than their physical appearance.
saraits a literary expression. it doesnt really make wine!
Alex, I think for that reason, Mildred will somehow cause trouble for Montag. She DOESNT know better and just wants a normal life so I believe she will do somthing to try to regain that normal lifestyle they had.
KathrynT-I think that Faber says a lot of things like that just to confuse the reader, I don't understand it very much either.
Like kjerstinl and tanal said, is Montag going crazy, or is he coming out to become his own person?
sarahc-i was ondering the same thing. why did he choose this poem over all of the other poems out there? how is this one so significant to the story?
Good point Brain, I agree
i agree with Sarah C... there were several times in the book where Montag stated that he couldn't control his hands, and that they were just moving without his consent.
sara and sarah, Im wondering that exact thing...
shaunam-i think that from the 'normal' people of the society's point of view, he IS going crazy, but from our point of view, we think of it as challenging the system and breaking away from the pack; being different.
sarah and sarait could because it is called the sea of faith, or about that, but Mildred and Montag really don't have faith in each other so the poem could be saying that. Im not sure he could have just pulled on out of a book randomly or it is his favorite poem or favorite poet.
Maybe Montag thinks that he does not want to blame himself, so he puts the blame on his own hands so that he doesn't feel as bad.
i think we might find out later in the book why Bradbury chose to have Montag read this poem.
I think that the poem Dover Beach that Montag reads is talking about the world. It says that the world seems to pormising and inviting, so new, beautiful and full of joy. But it is all a sham, just an allusion. I think that is also is talking about the ignorance of people. Everyone is ignoring the pain and knowledge of the world.
shauna~i think that both are happening to Montag. I think that he is questioning everything, his job, his wife, and the society in general. The fact that he cant do what he truly wants to do (read books) is making him crazy and causes him to do some things that he wouldn't usually do.
christa, I think you are exactly right about the presidential candidates... Its scary
i agree with brian, Mildred is afraid to break out of her shell of having no emotion and always watching the parlor walls and being a drone for society.
shaunami think that he is going crazy in order to become his own person. Or other way around or something im not sure!endsleye
Christa, i agree but i also just want to say that alot of people just support or vote for people based on what other people tell them, not really thinking for themselves. I think that, for us at least, kids just listen to their parents and then just repeat what they say without really any background knowledge. But im not saying thats true of all kids.
I think that Mildred is somewhat like lady macbeth. They both had a negative effect on their husbands. They also don't seem to show much affection for each other. Not in exactly the same way, but somewhat similar.
I think maybe the poem is so significant because it talks about how "the world, which seems to lie before us like a land of dreams, so various, so beautiful, so new, hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light nor certitude nor peace nor help for pain..." This exactly describes the society! The people think that their lives are full and good when really they are leading restless, depressed, and pointless lives.
Yea christa you are right although i have to say George w is uglier than john kerry
sarahi really like how you described the Dover Beach poem. How the world is just an allusion!!! i totally agree!
Sara and Sarah~I think that out of all the poems out there, this is the one that he chose for specific reasons. We dont know for sure, but there has to be some reasoning behind it.
ALRIGHT CONNOR!They both sucked
Christa and Alex, I completely agree with you guys. That is also why the Campaign for real beauty is so important.
I think that it is interesting that all we have met and really heard about is women. Mildred, Clarisse, and Mildred's friends make up a majority of the characters we have met. I know that we know about Faber and Beatty, but theses people are different than other people in society. Therefore, what do you think the "regular" men in this society are like? Do they act the same as Mildred and her friends do?
Definately. Very good pount Sara
about the poem--It talked about love. I wonder if that is what made ms. Phelps cry.
Could Clarisse and Faber be related? It is possible, and they have some similarities, but could they be related?
thank you endsleye
Sarah, Sara, and Alex-- I think that that peom was significant because it talked about how their society was. It could possibly have been talking about reallife society at the same time. there really is no peace in the world, even though it s so beutiful.
Chelseah, I think that maybe they could be related, since they both like thinking and thought
shaunamthe campagin for real beauty is really important!!! it shows how people need to be masked and changed to live up to our standards for models and everything!
your welcome shaunam
NO!!!!!!FABER CANNOT BE CLARRISES UNCLE!!!MONTAG HAS MENTIONED HER ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, AND FABER SAYSNOTHING!!!!!!!!jeez
sarah c~ I think that the "regular" men of society probably act the same as the women. They whole society is gray and everyone is pretty much the same, except for odd balls like Clarisse.
Clarisse and Faber are not relatedAlso, the war hasn't started yet.
I do not think they are related chelsea otherwise why would Faber be so incredibly scared all the time... when Clarisse was very open as was the rest of her family it seemed like. Correct me if im wrong, but i think if they were related they would be similar in the aspect.
I think that they could be related because they both seem really similar. Maybe if they aren't related they knew each other somehow.
I agree! It also shows how much we are relying on computers... even for BEAUTY!!! Is that how we are going to keep going?
Wow Alex you are really getting into this!
Endsley~Also the campaign is important because it goes along with that whole appearance vs. reality thing. It shows that people aren't truly happy with who they are.
alex is right...a little excited, but right. plus didn't Clarisse's uncle live with her? if not he was at her house a lot and i think Montag would have noticed.
is there a possibility that maybe they could be realted distantly?
yes i think that the whole campaign for real beauty is kinda scary as well. Its a good thing nobody our age does it.
chelsyou could be right! Faber could be Clarisse's uncle because i think she said (i dont remember) that after her uncle got arrested for being a pederstrian(sp?) that he was scared and stayed in the house. So Faber could be the uncle in hiding.
I don't think that Clarisse and Faber are related at all. Faber is an old man who lives alone, and really doesn't go out very much... if he had relatives or friends, he would get out more. He would probably at least contact family on the phone or something.
Shauna~haha, well i think that yes, the human race will become more and more reliable on technology. I also think that because of this, things will continue on the same path.
philliphow do you know they arent related?
Thanks Josh and DeclanI really don't care that much, I was just building on Smittys remark
endsleyMontag met Faber while he was outside so he couldn't be the uncle that hides inside all the time.
Yea Alex that girl really was not very good looking and they took it so far that it really was not even her anymore. It was makeup and computers.
Faber isnt clarisses uncle.
I agree with what brian said earlier. Clarisse was so open and free and Faber is just a former professor who is afraid and cooped up in his house. I think if they were related they would have some of the same mannerisms and character.
i agree with shaunam! It's ridiculous that we have to do so much just because we have a stereotype of what beauty should be. That's one point that prooves that computers have taken over too much of our lives. If we need computers to make people beautiful, then what really is beauty?
chelseah~that is scary...:O
Endsley i dont think thats true because remember in the very first part of the book where Montag goes outside and walks in front of Clarisses house and he just stands there and listens to what they are talking about, and he just wants to listen? The uncle was talking, and therefore he wouldnt be at his own house, so i still believe they are not related.
I don't think that Clarisse and Faber are related. I don't think they are alike at all! Faber, for instance, is holed up in his home all the time, ashamed of how he never did anything to stop people from destroying society and calling himself a coward. In contrast, Clarisse is open and always outisde, asking questions, talking to people, trying to get others to wake up from the dreamstate they live in. Faber is a coward, Clarisse is not.
kimmy~i think that it is possible that they are related. First, just because they are related doesnt mean that he wouldnt get out more. what if they got in a fight and they dont talk as much any more. Also, just becuase he is an old man that lives on his own, that doesnt say anything about his family at all.
shaunam and chelsi agree with both of your comments to the campaign or beauty!shaun~i think we are heading down the path of all technology because we are even using them to make people up to our "standards"chels~ your right! apperance vs. reality!
Who came up with what beauty is anyway? I think that it is great what Dove is doing, trying to bring back the real meaning, like Montag
We understand that Connor. people have said that a thousand times.
Oh, so did they not do anything to her? is that not even a real picture? Thats extreme
Shauna~I agree! I don't think anyone can really define beauty.
Beauty is a mask that covers up not just what people look like on the outside but how they are on the inside. It covers up peoples feelings and their character.
briantrue but remember after clarisse died they moved. so whatever nobody knows for certain unless it says later in the book
Chelseah--Mrs. Smith even said they aren't related. Faber has been living alone.
Shaunam-I TOTALLY agree. Everything is beautiful in their own way. If people think that you need computers to be beautiful, then you are destroying the true meaning of beauty.
Shauna~I totally agree with you? I think that what Dove is doing is really cool. Who did make up what true beauty is. People get too wrapped up with beauty!
Sara, I dont think you NEED computers to make people beautiful, it all depends on what you think beauty is. Beauty has no real definition, its definition is what you make it out to be.
Yea it is weird how much that campaign for real beauty can be connected to this book. it is just like history and english and how they go together so much.
hey Smith-I like Itchy and Scratchy
christa-I agree. Everyone has their own definition of beauty.
i agree with brian... you dont need computers to make them beautiful. Beauty is what ever you want it to be.
Why do you think that there is such a low value on human life? Why does Mrs. Phelps or Mrs. Bowles or whoever hate her kids and view them as a burden?
chelseah~ I agree!briang~ But people are making it become a standard that is impossible to reach. That is what we are saying.
The poem, in the last verse, seems to be talking about how the world seems beautiful and good--Mildred and the ladies think they are happy--but it is really pointless and empty. Here's the part that he read:"The Sea of Faith,Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shoreLay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.But now I only hearIts melancholy, long withdrawing roar,Retreating, to the breathOf the night-wind, down th vast edges drearAnd naked shingles of the world...Ah, love, let us be trueTo one another!for the world which seemsTo lie before us like a land of dreamsSo various, so beautiful, so new,Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor lightNor certitude nor peace, nor help for pain;And we are here as on a darkling plainSwept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,Where ignorant armies clash by night"(Bradbury 100). I'm not sure who wrote it.
Yea Brian you are right. certain people have different tastes and that is what makes some people more appealing than others.
I think that the idea of what beauty is has been around since even the earliest socities. The idea of beauty we have now is just an evolved version of what it has been for a very long time. Think about it, in picture of queens and princesses, etc. have you ever really seen one with an UGLY princess? The idea of being beautiful has been around forever, it is just human nature to want to be beautiful. If you are trying to find out what real beauty is, than you also have to find out what being ugly is as well...
That was a pretty pointed comment there Brain, a good point, but you sounded like an insecure girl repeating what her mother told her
briangI agree! I think computers destroy beauty, but obviously some people thinks it makes it better. It all personal POV.
About the value of life. There is no value because there is no emotion. To give life a value is to care, and caring is one of the many emotions they don't know.
Has anyone ever seen the twlight zone where there is this girl in a hospital, and they give her an operation to fix her face. And you think she's gonna be so ugly, they remove her mask and she's a perfect beautiful girl, she looks in the mirror, and screams, because she thinks she's sooo ugly, and then you see everyone else in the hospital, they are all really ugly... but in that society she's the ugly one.
Alex, that may have been the funniest thing that someone has posted on this blog.
thank you shauna. I couldn't have said it any better.
phillip~good point! i agree with you.
Ohhohothats what most people look at as beauty today...might as welll accept it for the time being...i hate think what it will be in the future... girls will just send out a hologram of themselves without any flaws...eeks
Going along with Adriana's comment, is this why Mrs. Phelps started crying? Has she realized that the poem really describes the world, that it really describes her life?
kimmy c-i've seen that one! it's so weird! but i still like that show, they come up with the strangest stories.
Beauty is so weird because it can be used so many ways. It attracts both genders depending on how they use it. If you had a billboard of a fine looking lady, and it was trying to sell some kind of beauty product, males would look at it and might be like "Woah now there is a fine lookin lady" but woman might be like "Woah i want to look like that fine looking lady". It attracts both genders sometimes for different reasons.
thank you Josh...i try
You are right Brian, and I think that some people will try and deny that, but theyd be wrong
Ms. Bowles is angry about the "awful hurting words." The poems are not horrible, they just make people think and sometimes, cause emotional reactions. I think that the reason she is mad is not that she can't understanding it, but that the poem brings up emotion that no one knows how to deal with. Mrs. Phelps starts crying after hearing the poem, and no one knows what to do. When people are touched by a piece of writing, it makes them think harder. This takes away from the "happiness" they have created around themselves.
kimmy c the twilight show is so cool and interesting! but i havent seen that episode! thats crazy though!
what the heck IS the twilight zone??
adriana~good point. I agree.
yea it is rare that you see someone that has the true beauty to be a model without having computer generated looks. but sometimes when you do find those people, they have never done anything like modeling.
brian-sure she might be a 'fine lookin lady' but is she really, truly beautiful?
Adriana you are completely right. The poem took Ms Bowles out of her little safe haven of not thinking and that made her cry
I call it plasticized personality
twilight zone is an old old old tv show where each episode tells a different person's story---they are all extremely weird and will most likely never happen, though they are science fiction...
Good point saram, "beauty is only skin deep".
the twilight zone is this like old show where things aren't always what they seem, it's an old sci-fi show.
hey hey sara, we can say what we want...guys spit it out without thinking alot, and maybe that particular billboard didnt require much thought
josh is right. beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. josh could think someone is the most beautiful person in the world, but i could think someone else is. people have differences in what they like or what they look for.
joshb, I don't think that you can make the assumption that most models aren't truly beuatiful. Unless you really know them and that profession, do you really know how much models are computerized?
Alex, I like it. I like it very much. that is clever.
chelsea-i agree! haha!
Do you think that this whole beauty thing goes the other way too. My mom reads a magazine called... i want to say the Enquirer or somthing. Basically its purpose is to bring out the "truth" about celebrities and things like that. It always has pictures of them being fat and gross, but could that be computer generated too?
i have a question-do you guys think that the firement coming to Montag's house will make Mildred go crazy?i think that she'll run away, since her beloved parlor walls would be burned.
Why does the Hound have eight legs? I've been dying to ask that!
Why do you guys think that when Beatty and Montag are playing poker that Beatty is asking him all of these questions and telling him things to confuse him? Is he trying to get Montag to admit that he has books?
i like all these deep comments
Josh, this is a joke i heard once, beauty is skin deep, but ugly goes all the way to the bone.
alex...the twilight show is like something that happens that is weird...it is hard to explain but there is this episode when this blind girl gets a surgery where you can see for 8 hours but you can only get it once. she wanted to see NY at night so she got the surgery and as soons as she took off her blindfolds NY went on a black out so she sat in darkness for 8 hours and then sun was just rising and she was about to see the skyline and her vision went out. thats the twilight zone
I believe so, because I think taht Beatty already knows-especially after that poem incident...
About beauty--Mildred and her friends have destroyed themselves by trying to be beautiful. He says Mildred looks like a praying mantis from dieting. He describes their hair as being fried from chemicals. They also paint their nails bright colors, trying to stand out and be radiantly beautiful. They could have been beautiful if they accepted who they were, but by trying to match the norm, they're malnourished, have brittle hair, and their just not good looking at all.
I think Beatty just wants to see how montags body language reacts. He knows that Montag wont confess but if he sees his scared look and his sweating he will know that he is guilty
sarah c, i am not assuming that all models are that way, I am just saying that a lot of times, beautiful people are stereotyped as ugly inside and fake.
josh~what do you mean by saying "beauty is only skin deep"? Do you always think that?
aleea-i think that the hound has eight legs and has many other weird characteristics because they want the Hound to be way different than other dogs so that people will be afraid of it.
I think that Beatty is just playing with Montag's mind. He already knows that Montag is guilty of having books, but he just wants to have a little fun to try to confuse him even more than he already is.
brithats mean..or does it mean personality?
Agree with chelseah
christa~I think that Beatty is guilting and perstering Montag into accidently leading on that he has books. I think that he is trying to scare and confuse Montag so that he falls into a mistake and gets himself caught. It is almost like the actual poker, he is playing Montag until he wins! A little creapy!
that is a magnificent jokeThanks endsley, it does seem kinda weird
No not at all. I know plenty of nice bueautiful people.
Endsley, you can interpret it any way you want, it was just a joke i heard once.
I guess there is some truth in that joke though brian--Mildred's friends seem ugly all the way to the bone.
hannahj, i think the hound is the way it is to make it more efficient, not to scare people.
Connor- you only like them because you're too thick to post them yourself...hahahaha jk jk
brianya i know!
I agree with Sarah that beatty is just toying with Montag. But when he starts to find out about Montag's books, he wants to teach the other Firemen a lesson by burning Montag's house
brian g-that's a funny one!i heard something once that said,well i'm fat and you're ugly, but at least i can lose weight.i thought it was funny.
I agree with sarahc. The hound is meant to be be efficient and do things. It just so happens to scare people because it is kind of like a threat that could kill anyone at anytime.
adrianna~do you always think that? or is that just in the book?
I just have one last question for you all: how would you define beauty? do you think that our view of beauty is shallow? how much do we base who we marry, who we date, etc. on beauty?
I like that one too
hannah~HAHA! thats a good one lol! ;)
ACTUALLY, this joke could very well apply to this, this is kind like saying that people wear masks you know? If beauty is only skin deep, and ugly goes to the bone, thats kind of like saying you can appear as somthing, but on the inside be something totally different.
hannah--I have a shirt that says that!
Agreed with ensleye!
again beauty is in the eyes of the viewer
I read through most of your guys' discussion today.[i wasn't there today doctor]& i found it interesting everyone's take on beauty and how someone is actually beatuful?does looks only matter... or is it personality too??you guys had a great discussion today!!also--to answer sarahc's question.I believe that some what of who goes out with who is because of how people look. You are initially attracted to someone who you think looks good. Especially now in highschool, most guys *no offense* but they do tend to only base things off of looks and not how a girl asks. The other day a group of us girls had a talk about what makes a guy good looking (hot). and we decided that a guy who isn't that gorgeous but has a veryyy good personality makes them seem much hotter. So to many people personality does matter; but looks also have a basis for it too.
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