Thursday, April 12, 2007

Fishbowl per.5 1984 117-147

91 Comments:

Blogger EmilyL said...

Yeah! It works!

Fri Apr 13, 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

Any questions?

Fri Apr 13, 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Hey guys I had a question: What is the significance of the rhyme on pg 146? Why do they remember it?

Fri Apr 13, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Why do you think Winston is immediately so trusting of Julia? How does he really know he can trust her? What causes him to trust her this way?

Fri Apr 13, 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

The rhyme is a connections to the past. It's catchy, so they remember it.

Fri Apr 13, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

maria-

i think the signifigance is that part of the past survived, even though the best attempts of the party were put to eliminate it and other things of the past.

Fri Apr 13, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

madison-
Winston loves Julia, so he trusts her.

Fri Apr 13, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Do you think Julia has any alterior motives in their relationship? She used other men, what makes you think she isn't using Winston?

Fri Apr 13, 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

madison-I think he trusts her because of what she says she has done with all of the other guys and because he wants to believe her and to find someone else who is/wants to rebel against the Party

Fri Apr 13, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger TomR said...

Madison, I think that Winston trusts Julia because he's never had any experience with a free-thinker before; he assumes anyone with enough sense to defy the party by passing little secret notes has probably figured out that the Party is corrupt.

Fri Apr 13, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Madison:

I think that Julia and Winston are drawn together by a common cause.

Fri Apr 13, 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-
i don't think its because the rhyme is catchy, its part of the past that doesn't "exist". I think that is what makes it important.

Fri Apr 13, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

I think that Julia does have a sense of what rebellion is, and she might have a higher purpose in the Party. Like she might be a secret agent type person.

Fri Apr 13, 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Madison--I think that Winston is desperate for someone to agree with him and be on his side. It so hard to be alone.

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

Sarah-
Do you find it kind of odd that Winston and Julia love each other. They didn't even know each other and suddenly they are in love??

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

sorry, blogger wasn't working for a bit. :)

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

laura-are you saying she is secretly working for the Party against Winston?

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

I was saying that they remember it because it's catchy

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Off of Laura's question?

Is Julia a doubleagent? If so who does she work for really?

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

Kari would like to say that she is not blogging because she is having computer problems. Understand?

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

I believe that because Winston and Julia truly do love eachoter...like opposites attract.

I believe that it goes back to the Yin-Yang, like Danny and Reuven in The Chosen by Chaim Potock

Fri Apr 13, 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

I agree, I think that Winston seeks someone who has similar beliefs about the party.

But why does he trust her right away? Couldnt he view her relationships with other people from the party as something to not trust her about? How does he know she is not apying on him? Why does he throw away all of his other feelings about her so soon without making sure that he can believe what she says?

Fri Apr 13, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Kari- I do think that she will use Winston just because she seems to have a reason behind loving him. He seems to care a lot more than she does, I think she is just trying to get him to like her more than he would if she was just always there for his use.

Fri Apr 13, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger TomR said...

Erin, does this remind you of any certain couple who were too stupid to run off together when they had the chance?

I think that Madison is right that Winston is desperate for an ally, perhaps he's confusing his relief at finding someone for love.

Fri Apr 13, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

erin-
What about love at first sight?

Fri Apr 13, 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

I think that she is working for an Inner Party member and they have set up the whole thing so she can investigate Winston.

Fri Apr 13, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

emily-I think it is hard for us to tell at this point which side she is truly working for because Winston believed she was a Thought Police worker and then the way she acts with him may be used to find out information. It's hard to see which side of her is really true right now.

Fri Apr 13, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Emilyl-

I don't think that Julia is a doubleagent at all. She has obviously been trained to be one, but I don't think she is an actual agent that would report on Winston.

Fri Apr 13, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

I don't think Julia is a doubleageant, and if she was, her fate is the same as everyone elses. Also, I think it seems strange that the party would establish all of these rules and then hire people to break them.

Fri Apr 13, 12:58:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-
that's not why they remember it, in no point in the book does it say that the little catchy church tune from days past is catchy and thats why i sing it. They sing it because it's another act of rebellion that they can use and relate to each other. A part of the past that they found. Not because it's catchy.

Fri Apr 13, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger lindsey c said...

erin- I dont think that it is odd because the way that winston saw that rebellion in O'brein without even talking to him and maybe Julia saw that in Winston.

Fri Apr 13, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

And rmember...Winston could easily report her...

Fri Apr 13, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Madison-I think he trusts her, because they don't know how to choose who to trust and who not to. He hasn't learned who to trust and who not to trust, and I don't think he even thinks it is a possibility for her to be a spy.

Fri Apr 13, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Michelle,

Mr. Meyer said attractive women are often the best spies...

Fri Apr 13, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

hannah-i agree. Especially when they meet she ensures that they are in a very secret place and does not risk being heard over hidden microphones.

Fri Apr 13, 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Tom, I agree. I find it odd that Winston automatically gives in to Julia, and has so much trust in her. Couldn't other people be using the same sort of plan (claiming to love someone) to get them to admit to thought crime? (not trying to say that is what Julia is doing to Winston)

Fri Apr 13, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger emilya said...

Kari- good question... I was thinkign that too. She says shes had these affiars hundreds of times before. So what happens to these other men? Does she just use them and then disappear?

I think she is planning on using Winston and then disappearing... Yet, I think she will fall even more in love with him and then want to stay with him, considering they believe in the same things, and then rebel together.

Fri Apr 13, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger lindsey c said...

michelle- but Julia could just as easily repot him

Fri Apr 13, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

emily-but didn't Winston say that she was not that attractive to look at? HE was just drawn to her because he longed to be with her

Fri Apr 13, 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

but michelle,
he could report her, but if julia is acting as a double agent, than she would be safe when he reports her but she could report him for rebelling against the party and working with someone he thought was from the brotherhood.

Fri Apr 13, 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

laura-
I don't think Julia is a doubleagent because she does not let Wintson go down the information path very often.
Riley-
I mean that the words of hte rhyme are catchy. They rhyme in many ways, the things they talk about are common...it's simple.

Fri Apr 13, 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger lindsey c said...

Emily- thats a great point , what did happen to those other men. Did dhe turn them in because she was just broed with them? Or did they just leave her? How can we ever be sure that winson wont just become another notch on her belt?

Fri Apr 13, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger lindsey c said...

sorry that was emily adams.

Fri Apr 13, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

I think she has all those affairs with those men and gets information out of them, and then turns them in if it is in conflict with Big Brother. I dont' know. Just a thought.

Fri Apr 13, 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Julia says that she has had several relationships with other party members, but did she love all of them? Is Winston the only man Julia has ever loved? If so, then will this relationship be different and end differently for Julia?

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger erinl said...

Sarah-
It could be love at first sight, but at first he hated her. Is that love?
Tom-
that reminds me of Romeo and Juliet. I was totally thinking of that when I was writting that comment, but look at how they turned out..

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

laurab-then why was she so open with Winston about what she has done?

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Why can't Julia and Winston get married?

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

To answers Lane's question:

I think that Julia's optimistic philosphy is going to bring her trouble in the minstry of love. She can't see true reality of drabness.

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

laura-
Winston at first wanted to smash her face in, it was only after she confessed her love for winston and her hatred of the party that they loved each other. he didn't really long to be with her at first. But otherwise i agree.

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

emily-
Julia says that at least one of the men she loved disappeared.

Fri Apr 13, 01:03:00 PM  
Blogger TomR said...

I'm not sure the Party would be willing to trust any of their spies with such ideas as Julia has, even if she doesn't really believe them. I believe spies would use more indirect methods to find the information they need to get.

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger emilya said...

emilyl- I agree with lauraf and to expand on that... i don't think it mattered back then for s job as a spy to be attractive, just as long as you are a loyal and hard worker, they would higher you. Plus, none of the ladies wear cosmetics so I really do not think looks matter to them...

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

Laura, I agree. That was a thought I had. Maybe the Party sends people to claim they are in love with people to get them to admit to thought crime.

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

hannah-does Julia truly love Winston or does she just say that she does? how would we know?

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I think all those affairs are just her way to stick it to the man. She doesn't really care about taking control from the party, rather she just likes to do stuff behind their backs. It prooves to her that she is smarter than they are.

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Maria-
Winston is still married so they can't be married

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Emilyl an lindsey c-

I know. I was attempting (I obviously didn't do it well...) that there is obviously an attraction between them...stronger than that between one who is faking inable to inform on another. Check on page 132 for this quote "They did not discuss the posobility of getting married...No imaginable would ever sanction such a marriage."

Fri Apr 13, 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

Good question, Maria! Maybe marriage is a kind of arrangement by the Party when they come of age, if they come of age. I was wondering the same thing!

Fri Apr 13, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Madisonm said...

oops, just to clear that up:

My last post was in reference to Laura Brennan's comment.

Fri Apr 13, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Laura- The only thing is that everything anyone does can be seen as going against Big Brother. Several things throughout the book suggest that although specific rules are not made about certain activities, such as walking through the prole cities, but Winston still avoids it.

Fri Apr 13, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger emilya said...

MariaK-
Winston and Julia cannot get married because they already know the party and the workers would not approve of this marriage. The party has to approve of every marriage. Also, Winston knows he is much older than Julia and so he thinks their marriage would not work out...

Fri Apr 13, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

erin

Winston did not know Julia before he met her. Haven't you ever hated someone, then met them, and become fast friends?

Fri Apr 13, 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger EmilyL said...

Maria,

I think marriage for love doesn't exsist in this book. People marry to be good party memebers, not because they are in love.

Fri Apr 13, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

If Winston is still married, then where is his wife? Did she get vaporized?

Fri Apr 13, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

If Julia was a double agent...wouldn't she had already reported him?

Fri Apr 13, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

Lane,
Julia nd Winston can't get married because Wintson is already married...Katharine still lives.

Fri Apr 13, 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger TomR said...

Hannah, that's a good point. Anything unusual is regarded as suspicion. Julia and Winston havbe surely been caught together on telescreens at some point before, and if they got married people would immediately begin to suspect them.

Fri Apr 13, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Laura B--He said somewhere that the Party probably wouldn't even let him get back together with Kathrine. And also, if Julia has been with hundreds of guys, it doesn't seem like they really want to get married.

Fri Apr 13, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-
that isn't even the question!?! Maria asked what the signifigance of the rhyme was, and you answered that. But they don't say that it is catchy in the book. Winston knows it because of the prole guy who sold him the diary. They don't say that the rhyme is catchy. I agree when you said it was a connection to the past and that is why it is signifigant, but it being catchy isn't signifigant at all. unless you think something different, maybe a mention in the book or something that i missed.

Fri Apr 13, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Winston and Julia can't get married because, as I understand it, all marriages have to be okayed by the ministry of love. First, Winston is still technically married to Katherine, and second, they would become suspicious on how they met considering they don't really work together.

Fri Apr 13, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

Hannah- I don't think she liked all of them, I do think Winston is the only one that she has had a chance to spend time with I think. I think that Julia does like Winston and doesn't want to turn him in, but do you think she has turned in the other men?
Maria- I wonder the same.

Fri Apr 13, 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

Mariak-

Again, look on page 132, it explains why they can't get married

Fri Apr 13, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Emilyl- Marriage for love is not premitted in Oceania. People marry for reproduction only and if there is any physical attraction, the marriage will not be approved.

Fri Apr 13, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger emilya said...

mphair-
Maybe Julia is trying to be a good spy and not immediatley report him. She could have some whole plan laid out and it may take a long time...

Fri Apr 13, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Lane C. said...

Sarah, I know that's basically what I said.

Fri Apr 13, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

riley,
Maria also asked why they remember it!

Fri Apr 13, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Laurab said...

What do the rats represent? I agree with Kenna and how they represent all the evil in our lives. And as Zach said, it kind of shows them that what they just did was so terrible and hurtful to the Party. So, the rats are like the guilt and evil in our lives.

Fri Apr 13, 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

Sorry lane, I thought you were asking.

Fri Apr 13, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger TomR said...

I agree with Kari that Julia is just using the men to be rebellious. At some point she mentions that an all-out rebellion against the party would be stupid, and she'd rather do "forbidden" acts behind their back for some sort of smug self-satisfaction.

Fri Apr 13, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-
but where does it say that in the book? i think there is some other reason we missed why they remembered it.

Fri Apr 13, 01:09:00 PM  
Blogger hannahs said...

Shelby- I think the only way Julia could have turned other men in would be is she were a doubleageant. If she wasn't the men would tell the police about her actions as a rebel. So, she is either a doubleageant or she is a rebel and doesn't turn those men in.

Fri Apr 13, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

Michelle- I think that if Julia was a double agent, she would not have reported him because the longer she is with him, the more she understands about human nature. I think that even if she was a double agent, I think her experiences with Winston opened her eyes to the fact that there is more to life than the Party.

Fri Apr 13, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Mphair said...

I agree with shelby b. in that the majority of Julia's affairs she didn't realy love. Like mistresses of rich people in the past.

Fri Apr 13, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

They never say, that is my explanation...think about it...why do we remember nurery rhymes like jack and jill?

Fri Apr 13, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger maria k said...

Sarah and Riley--What does the rhyme mean?

Fri Apr 13, 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger karib said...

I was listening to the inner circle and they were talking about O'brien. I think Winston sees the same qualities in Julia that he sees in him. Could there be a link between the two?

Fri Apr 13, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger lauraf said...

tom-do you think she just does acts behind their backs just because she knows that they won't be able to overthrow the Party, or she doesn't want to?

Fri Apr 13, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Shelby B. said...

I think the rats represent terrible life and that they are doing something against the Party and it isn't right for them to do it.

Fri Apr 13, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger sarahc said...

maria, the rhyme is just the way to remember the names of the churches

Fri Apr 13, 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger rsinn_butnotfire said...

sarah-
i don't, nursery rhymes are to help children in their upbringing and teach them lessons.

Fri Apr 13, 01:12:00 PM  

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