Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 7:42 AM
Ok, my first question is, why does Montag say that Beatty WANTED to be killed?
sarah, i think he means that he was asking for it...
Beatty knew that Montag had the flame thrower, and he knew that he could do something with it.
I think maybe Beatty wanted to die because maybe he felt the emptiness of his life and maybe he even wanted to challenge the system by reading books, but didn't have the courage. Maybe he felt that life was not worth living if he didn't challenge the system.
saram--wat do you mean by aksing for it..?
I think it is a way to deal with his guilt over killing him.
I just found it interesting that just like Macbeth, one murder leads to more murders to cover ones tracks. It is like a pattern.
there's a difference between wanting to be killed and asking for it... I think that he was careless about whether he lived or died. I think he was not really happy with his life.
Beatty was making Montag mad on pupose. He knew that if he kept mocking him Montag would kill him. Maybe Beatty felt guilty too and that is why he wanted to die.
adamb~what do you mean? Who?
I think what Montag meant was that if someone was holding a gun to your head and you started provoking them, then you were asking to be shot. Except in this case it was a flame thrower.
In their society, death is common and people get careless. It says earlier that people assume it will always happen to someone else
Kimmy C, Montag as feeling guilty
SarahI think he said that because Beatty didnt try to save himself. He didnt try to stop Montag.
I have a broad question:Earlier we talked bout challenging the system and how it may include death...?After reading 3 books with death in it ....is death the only way you can challenge the system?
mmmmkay...guys how are we gonna separate the comments from one group to anotheri say that my group is group 1, and we write GROUP 1 at the top, and group two does the same... post back!
When you think about it, if you are always saying that death will happen to someone else, then someone else thinks that you will be the one that dies. So everyone has equal chance of dying.
thats kind of true in any society. no one thinks bad things will happen to them. it is just taken to the next level in their society because they don't care at all if their friends or even family die.
GROUP 1sounds good alex!
no! I think we should be a whole group on this because our conversations are different between one another.
ok alex sounds good!
I think Beatty was egging him on because he wanted to die.
Jess, I think that to REALLY challenge the system is to die. I guess to really get the point across
Jess, I don't think that death is the only way you can challenge the system because you can break laws and challenge the system too.
Jess i don't think that death is the only way to challenge the system but it is definatly the method that is used the most throught the three books
alexI don't think we really need to separate the groups. we're challenging the system here.
To add onto what paigen said, it think that if someone is holding a gun to your head and you provoke them, it is possible that you want to die. It is also possible that you may be trying to appear to have bravado, or false bravery. I think it could be a combination of things.
GROUP 1I think that Montag may have killed Beatty because Clarisse introduced him to a new way of thinking from the beginning. She kind of started a chain reaction in a way...so Montag's new thinking caused him to kill Beatty out of anger and maybe because Beatty just annoyed the crap out of him.
Shauna, dying is not really challenging the system unless you die for a just cause or a rebellion against a radical force, etc.
wait a minutie shauna... do you have to die to challenge the system?
Sounds good alex, but I think we should all look at each other's discussions too.
how about if your comment is directed to group 2 then put GROUP 2 at the top.. but if it as a general comment then dont put anything.
GROUP 1It does seem like Beatty enjoys literature, and it sort of brings on his downfall. He was to lienient with Montags fascination with them.
sarah- I think that Montag says that Beatty wanted to be killed because he didn't put up a fight or stop like someone who wanted to save his life.
yes.. i agree with you shauna.people don't really know how to get their ideas across and the best way to get peoples attention is murder and violence.
Alee, I agree with what you said but you also could thihnk that the person with the gun would not have the nerve to shot you.
Very true paige.
I agree with alex. I think Beatty could have acted faster with Montag, but he thought Montag would "come to his senses" and burn it himself.
Okay I am starting a new question...Near the end, it says that Montag starts running, how can he do that with his crushed leg?
NICE POINT KIMMY!!!!
Declan i agree, I think that Beatty overestimated how much montag likes burning things.
I think Beatty doesn't realize that Montag will have the courage to kill him.
elyse, i agree also. I don't think that beatty was expecting Montag to burn him.
elyse~i think that Montag grew farther apart from burnig things, but I think that him burning Beatty was an act of instinct and first reaction.
paige--when your in such fear and have so much adrenaline then you don't think about the pain that you have and it kind of goes away.
Paige, I think that he has so much adrenaline that his leg just goes away and he does not notice it anymore.
I agree with Phillip, Beatty really underestimated Montag
I think that Beatty did overestimate Montag and how far he would go with the flamethrower, but I also think that he did know subconsciously that Montag would have the nerve to kill him. It is a little confusing.
phillips, I agree, fire can be your friend, but also your foe. You can start a fire but it is just the matter of controlling it.
thanx shauna!I just wanted to add the blog the idea that when Montag burns down his house, it is like a phoinex with rebirth from the ashes.
People in group 2--we are discussing the point of the sleeping pills. What do you think?
Jess we just put the exact same thing.
wow josh...us JB's think alike.
I think that it is a little ironic that all the firemen rules that Montag used to challenge, he is now following and sort of shoving them back in Beatty's face.
OHHH nice point Kimmy!
what do you think about what?
Birds!! What is the symbolism of birds both n the book and in real life? What do we picture brds to mean? Why?
adriana~I think that the sleeping pills are just a means of escape for society. They let them kind of be at peace and in their own way, "challenge the system".
This last part of the book was the most fast paced and interesting....with the running and the flame thrower ( the best part) and the destruction of the green bullet...i also liked the part where Montag forces Faber to turn on all the sprinkers and AC in order for the Hound to not find him.
good point paige. I agree. He is challenging the system and sticking it to the 'man' (who I guess is Beatty in this situation)
I agree w/ Christa
As far as the pills go adriana g~ I think that they can symbolize a lot of things. They are a way of hiding, putting off your problems till later. They are like the fire, you can burn things and destroy them physically, but you never really get rid of them mentally and symbolically. Similarly, the pills push problems off till later, and they start to accumulate and make even bigger problems.
sarahc-Fire is like the parlor walls. They could be like friends, but viewers have no control over them, they don't, "play god to them," like Faber ays. This makes them become foes.
kjertinlthe injection was procaine
Kathrynt- I think that birds symbolize different things. Like the phoenix is rebirth and then the raven is like evil and death.
if anyone is still wondering, procaine is just another name for novacaine
adriana- I don't really agree with christa-I think that the pills are what enfore the system-to challenge this system, you'd have to learn-to feel-to have your own ideas.
Kathryn-I think they have many different meanings. Like a dove mean peace, Raven means death. But what does this mean? Do birds in general mean something?
haha thanks declan
whoa when did brids come into this karthryn?
Good point aleea. We were thinking they are also like fire--a way to burn your problems.
what do birds have to do with anything?
I don't think that the pills represent anything it was just a way to introduce Mildred as mindless.
good point, adriana.
alexm~ in our conversation
good point sara!!
pills are an escape and something you think of as control
I really like what Alee said about the pills in that they are like fire where they can sort of wash things away. I think that may be what the pills do, they make everything better on a individual scale. BY THE WAY ALEE, I USED YOUR COMMENT OVER IN OUR DISCUSSION, THANKS!
alexm- There are many references to birds in the book-and there are also many about the "wings of the books", etc. We are simply analyzing that.
adriana good point
YES!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU ADAM!!!!!!! FINALLY A BREAKTHRU---connor( computerless) agrees too
adam~i disagree, i think that pills have a lot of meaning and symbolism, especially of how reliant Mildred is of the parlor walls, pills, etc.
OK the birds like the phoenix symbolize rebirth like when Montag burnt his house to start over
a phenoix is also a fire bird
ok i have a new question...why do you think Montag was telling Faber to do all that stuff when he was getting ready to run away? Montag told him to rub the doorknobs with alcohol, pack a suitcase with dirty clothes and they also drank whiskey. Why do you think this is?
I think the pills are the community's way of fixing problems-being happy. I think they symbolize how ignorant the community is-they know there's a war, but do they care? do they even know how to care?
Could war symbolize the challenge that is going on with Montag and the rest of the world? War is declared right as he begins to run aaway to FAber's house and planes alwaays fly over when he talks of the books and with change.
hannahj-so that Faber won't get in trouble/burned.
It was to get rid of Monrag's scent from Faber's house. The suitcase is for montag to change clothes.
Montag didn't want the Hound to come to Faber's house and kill Faber and he wanted to make sure that the house smelled like him afterwards.
Hannahj~ So that the Mechanical Hound can't track him down
i agree with chelsea i think that the pills have a lot of symbolism in this book. i think that mildred relies on the pills a lot in this book. Also i have a question when mildred overdosed on the pills and almost died why was montag so depressed and scared but just a little bit later montag was saying how that if mildred died he doesn't think he would cry or anything
hannahj~Montag told Faber to do this so the mechanical hound wouldn't smell his scent on Faber's house, and he is going to wear a bunch of Faber's old clothes to cover his scent so the hound won't be able to track him.
Ok, after Montag read to the ladies, why didn't he realize that the possibility of them turning him in was immensly great? Why did he go into the firehouse and assume that Beatty would not know?
In oue discussion, I think that the books are found because whoever reads books fells like Montag and needs to share it. I think this is how they are found.
Nice point about the phoenix shauna!
hannahhe was telling Faber that stuff so the Hound wont catch Faber too.
Birds can mean hope, majesty, etc. When the book lands in Montag's hands, I think he described it as looking like a bird.here it is:"A bokk lit, almost obediently, like a white pigeon in his hands, wings fluttering" (Bradbury 37)He also compares a page to a snowy feather.
Yea the fie makes everything equal. It makes the books go awat so that some peole cannot be superior to others through knowledge.
If you notice in this book, a book is usually compared to nice peaceful things like birds and such, why is that so?
I agree with Josh about the fire
OHHHH good point Endsley! I forgot that the phoenix is the fire bird. THANKS!
paige good point, I noticed that too, but books are illegal in this society. You would think that they would be portrayed as bad.
does it talk about birds in the book, or how did they come up?
joshb, Beatty was telling Montag that an intelletual man has an unfair advantage.
Paige, birds are free to think and fly around, like books, they can think and express whatever they want.
sarahc~I think that Montag felt that he had nothing to lose, in fact, he even said this. He needed for others to see that books have some meaning, even though it doesn't really seem he was successful with this when Mrs. Phelps started crying. I think that he just wanted to expose them to books and what is in them, because his plan is to start getting books into society's hands. As far as Beatty goes, Montag seemed to think that Beatty suspected him of other books because he sent the Hound out.
Sara, i think Montag lost control, and because the books have caused him to think differently now, he couldn't stand to sit there and listen to them talk like that, so his new mind frame got the best of him and he just came out. I think he said he felt like a fool too.
I totally agree with josh about fire. good point!
I think that the books are like birds because they sow freedom-happieness-ideas-a dove represents peace(white pigeon=dove, guys), etc.
paige~I think maybe the books are compared to flopping dead birds because they are kind of helpless. The books can't really save themselves, so maybe Bradbury is trying to say that people need to step forward to protect books and knowledge.
paige n-I think that books are compared to birds because books are the victims of the situation in this society. They are like innocent things (birds) and really, they never did anything...except have opinions.
Josh, I get what you are saying, but if books are apparently so bad and terrible and must be burned, then why would them compare them to something sweet and wholesome, instead of something bad?
Adriana, not and unfair advantage in our world, but in this world, it is considered unfair to be intellectualy superior and that is the mindset of the people in this book.
Montag is an ignorant being that doesn't know very much yet... I don't think that Beatty WANTED to die, but I don't think he minds it very much. Beatty I think, thinks along the same line as Montag is now beginning to, but he enjoys burning too much to gove it up...
Chelseah~ It says like a phoenix is a fire bird and it burns in the fire and then is reborn again. It starts over
shaunamkinda like the one in harry potter. it was a phenoix:]
Who is comparing them to peacful things? I forget..
christa and anna--you both have totally opposite ideas...do you think Bradbury wanted to create that conflict in order to show the downside/positive side of books?
i think that they keep comparing the books to peaceful things because they keep destroying the books because they are the ones that are making the society unhappy and unpeaceful, so they burn them to keep the society peaceful. i think that the books destroy the peace.
Paige, birds are compared to books from a standpoint of our modern world, but not to the world in the book. To the world in the book, books are like drugs.
THis is what our group is discussing: What does fire represent?I think that fire is life-we mentioned that these people arn't really alive-is the fire that alive to them? Do they really know life?
Endsleye! O yeah! I haven't seen that in a LONG time
Good point, jess. I would never have thought of that!
I don't think that the firemen realise the symbolism in the Phoenix. They just use it as a cool symbol, which it is... Phoenixes are pretty awesome. Its too bad they dont really exist.
Fire is a force that you can't control. Sure we can make, but if a forest fire starts it takes along time to put it out.
Why did Montag cry when he killed Beatty and he cried when he saw kids who could have killed Clarisse, but he wouldn't have cried if Mildred died?
Doesn't the phenoix also heal people with there tear drops or is that just in harry potter?
Besides the fact that Salamanders can run through fire, why did they pick that as their animal symbol? It is not that impressive?
i think just harry potter.haha.
I thought it was interesting that the books are called beautiful birds, but when they are in piles on the floor, he calls them fish. Maybe he is trying to show how sad and hopeless they are right before they are burned.
kjerstin~i think that he cried for them because he generally cared for them. if mildred would have died, he might have cried, but i dont think there were many feelings for her....
also the phonix is reborn through the ashes so what does it really mean and symbolize in this book. is the pheonix reborn everytime that they burn books and the houses
Paigen, I think that it is impressive b/c most animals cannot do that without dying
It can also heal itself, according to declan.
how does the dying of the pheonix and the rebirth of the pheonix relate to 451...?
I was just thinking that what if Montag gets caught on fire and dies. He would be killed by the thing that was for so long the focus of his life.
Well if people just go by what they hear, salamander sounds very viscious
Salamander's can regenerate limbs.
well paige, can salamanders do anything else or have any other special qualities?
BUt still, it is not like the salamander can live in fire or something, why didn't they use like a dragon?
kjerstin~I think that Montag cied when Beatty died because he had worked with him forever and they were kind of "in it together". He cried for Clarisse because he felt that she was so pure and actually cared about him. He wouldn't cry for Mildred because he never really cared for her, and she didn't really care for him. They were both indifferent about their relationship.
Yea Brian its tears heal things.
good thought josh!
Phillip~ that is really strange
paige & sara-----salamanders can live in water and on land... symbolic??
jessi think yes
Jess and obviously they can be in fire for quite some time.
Sara, I think that salamanders can also detach their tale when they are in danger, does this have any significance towards firemen?
have you heard :fight fire w/ fire
jess~me too, i think you can find symolism in almost anything in the book
I think so jess b. This books seems to be loaded with symbolism, so the salamanders could definitely be a part of this.
jess-i think that is symbolic in some way.....?
I think the salamander is Bradbury's way of showing that the firemen aren't as grand and scary as they seem. Maybe that is why he didn't use something more vicious and majestic like a dragon.
Good point Josh!
Phillip-that is a nice ffact, but it may sow something---if salamanders can regenerate limbs, are the firemen trying to say something when they use it as their logo? If so, what?
hey anna, that's what I was thinking! geez, you stole my idea...
Good Point Adriana!
Jess that connects to what i was saying on the blog because they are being destroyed by the very thing that was their focus for quite some time.
apparently modern day Phoenixes are PENGUINSyeah i knowyour amazed
someone over her in group 1 was saying that the salamander could represent the whole organization. They lost Montag-big deal, even if he gets away they will soon forget him.
Well the pheonix's symbol is that the pheonix burns and is rebirthed. Men are the same way in that we make the same mistakes over and over again and must rebuild after it. Granger is mad becuase we have one thing the bird does not and that is the ability to learn from our mistakes.
Oh and i never thought about the salamander that was good whoever brought it up!
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