Thoughts, observations, comments, and concerns regarding our readings and classroom discussions.
posted by annes @ 7:43 AM
Let's get this party started!
whew. mUcH better pic...
Don't speak so soon, Maria.
I'm staying out of it...by the way, I liked your "Phair is phoul" comment yesterday...sorry...
ahhhhh! What is that?
ohhh jk its dora sry
This has become a predictable dicussion.
good one guys good one
I love this class... We're so weird!!!
Guys for the blog today could you guys indetify the group?
to the infinity... and beyond
OK so I thought that the whole house burning down was weird. Anybody else think that?
good one riley
The cool ones are group one and the group with Hannah M. Staller is group 2.
wrong pic though
Ok I'm thinking its time to start the real discussion.
Group 2:I think that Beatty probably knew about the books all along, but he just kept giving Montag more chances...and I think that Mildred probably "told on" Montag aswell, because she didnt like the amount of stress that they were under, and all of these new things she was experiences...she was confused and uncomfortable because she was experiences circumstances that she wasnt used to
I was wondering what made Beatty so smart, what made him want to think. And also where he got his knowledge of books, he recited some poetry to Montag?
The group with JoanneWe are dicussing why Mildred turned Montag in. Here's a thought is Montag the ghost in Mildred's closet so to say?
Group 1:I agree that Beatty probably know all along about the books.
Emily, that's exactly what I think. She's challenging his challenging the system, so to speak.
Maria, I was wondering the same
ya about A LOT of books. Did he ever break the law maybe and read them?
she's covering her own arse, because if she didn't send in an alarm she would face concequences with Montag. Somehow without emotion she is still afraid of being held responsible
Mildred thinks she will avoid being prosecuted if she tells the authorities about the books.
Beatty said that he was "forced" to read books, Maria. I think that this was Beatty's way of being better than other people; he was elevated because of his knowledge. His going-against books was to make it so that no one else could have access to his source of power, books.
Group 2:I agree as well...yet So Maybe it was like she thought she would be guilty by association, so to cover her, she just turned it in.
Interesting thought, Emily.
just say g1 or g2 before your comment to show which group your in. make it more uniform and less confusing
I think that Mildred turned the books in because she was saving her own sin.
I think Zachf is right. I think that she was seeking amnesty.
Scared...what is that defined...It seems to be a major part of this book.
G1:We're discussing what we would do in Montag's situation. How about you Group 2 people. What would you do?
I think of course that Faber always knew about the books. He had that talk with Montag when he was sick and before they got the call about the fire.
Here's an interesting question from our side: What would you do if you were in Montag's situation?
Which groups are which? I'm guessing Joanne is leading group two and Ben and daniel are leading group one?
I think we should lose the whole G1 and G2. How about the Dark side and the Light side???
lane-why would Mildred want to save her own sins? Mildred doesn't have any feeings. Does she care that she has sins.
Anna-an answer!I would feel complete shock and probably denial.
sorry, my last comment was directed at Laine's comment.
I would run away and immediately flee to Faber. I would seek a place to hide with a friend.
I probablt wouldn't have the courage to kill Beatty and wouldve cowered away and died right there.
emily, everyone needs to have a uniform way of saying which group they are in without the hassle.maybe it would be best to have to different blogs.
That's right Emily.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I think I'd do the same thing, Michelle!
We are all talking together, Rileys.
Wrong Laine, Maddy. I'm Lane. It's ok though.
anna~so is the government staying powerful because they let themselves have access to books? Is this their way of keeping the image of Utopia?
I think most people would have lost it in montag's situation.
If i was in Montag's situation I think I would be the same way because after so much time of keeping it in I would snap.
mariak: I think that it is all habit. The government rules out of habit, and the people follow out of habit. There is not longer any reason. Like with the war.
Lane, I think would have just run. I have always been really bad about killing th danger. if I'm in any dangerous situation I run.
Maria--I always figured they were as brainwashed as the rest of the world. Hasn't this society been in place for quite a while?
Is anybody else having trouble bloging and discussing at the same time? It's making my brian hurt.
I don't neccessarily think that Mildred was challenging the system, tomr. She sent the alarm about Montag and the books. I think that she did that because, like we have discussed before, Mildred follows the rules and is afraid to do anything that would be considered against the rules. She knew that the books were against the rules, so she wasn't going to tolerate it and turn the person in who had the books, even if that person was her husband. She is like all the others in the society and does what she is supposed to: report anybody who has books in their house.
I think Beaty was always smart but he just had this charming appearence that made him seem harmless. However, I think his true character was exposed when they were at Montag's house.
Laura B.--I said she was challenging Montag's challenge of the system.
tom~ya, i guess we dont know. Faber knew the other world though, so it couldnt be too long...
karib: Me too.
Maria, I think that that is a large possiblity. With books comes power, so the government would have a very keen interest in books. Though this would not fit with the whole idea of the PEOPLE causing the books to become obsolete.
hannah~appearance vs reality! But then why did he need to sugar coat Montag the first time?
I agree with you, karib, and I also like your pic. Having to pay attention to the discussion and blogging at the same time is hard to do.
I think that by turning in books, Mildred was trying to bow down to the system. She wanted amnesty.
We are talking about scarfice in group two Mildred made huge scarfice in turning Montag in. She lost her security, tv, etc... Did she make a scarfice for the greater good?
maria, I think Montag was sugar-coated because maybe his appearance was not what the socitey liked.
In Montag's position, I am not sure that I would be confident enough in myself and what I believed in at the moment, to do anything drastic or anything really. I would probably end up having my opinions but not doing anything extreme...like if Beatty showed up at my house and told me to give the books up and burn my house, I would probably just do what he said or run away....rather than kill him and then run away...
I dont really think that the government is interested in books. They dont care. They just do and do not think.
emily, I think Mildred was desperate, and overwhelmed and scated. People do crazy things when they are desperate.
Over how long a period of time does this book go over... from when it starts...
Ben--What do you mean, "They just do and do not think?"
I agree. Desperation is a powerful force.
Did Beaty really want to die or did he believe he had enough of a hold on Montag and Montag would hand over the flame gun?
I think that it's scary that Beatty knew so much about books and poetry.
ben~someone has to think. Have you read The Giver?
mphairI think so far, we've covered a couple weeks.
I think he burned his house because he was told to. He hhas always followed what he has been told and done what people have said.
sorry tom. That was not real clear. What i mostly meant is they rule out of habit. Like "lets start another war." They probably do not really consider what action is necessary and what the actions they take will do.
one thing about this story so far---from our perspective as the reader, Montag usually comes off as a "good guy" and that he is doing the right thing. But if an uprising like this happened in our real world, and a person acted the way Montag has, would we still consider them a good guy?
I think Beatty thought Montag was Bluffing. Well...He was wrong.
emilya,Montag hasn't actually conformed to everything that e was told. He fluctuates.
No, I have not maria. But do people really have to think that hard in this world. They just do what they always have.
What does Montag mean when he says, "We never burned right ..."
Madisonm: I think that is a great question. If someone went against the society we perceived as just, then we would not.
Another interesting question from "The Dark Side:" What are the similarities and the differences between Montag's emotions from the first page of the book and his emotions from pages 116 and 117?
ben~in The Giver, they believe that someone has to hold all the memories of what a non-Utopia world is like so that it will never be forgotton. How could that relate to this story? Does Montag maybe feel so trapped because there is NO ONE to do this, no one that thinks?
LaneI think he means that burning might be the solution to the problems, but they burnt the wrong things.
yeah lane, his russian roulette blew him out the window, he picked the one with the bullet in it.
In the book, Montag isn't considered a "good guy" by his peers. The group mentality dictates to us what is right in wrong, in both our present world and 451's.
I like your idea Hannah...we grow up like our parents, wether we want to or not.
Lane, Montag is realizing that they never burned for the right reason, aka for the good of the people. He is trying to explain this but is at a loss for words.
Maria: I think in this case the memories of past society are in books. And they try to destroy these memories. It solidifies the foundation of their modern society.
Why would Clarrisse be working for Beatty? I am confused.
I don't think that Montag was made to kill, I think that it could have been his hands just doing it and not himself thinking.
Good question Lane. I'm not sure, but I think it refers to the morals of why they were burning things, not just books. Burning the books was bad, but it helps him justify burning Beatty. I don't know what part of the book that quote is from.
ben-it's not that there is no one to lean on, he does have Clarisse and Faber, but they aren't enough, Clarisse died and Faber is to afraid to do anything, so Montag feels the pressure and snaps.
Good point, Ben.
ben~ya! and then when there is no proof left, when the books are all gone, they can change those memories to what they want. good one.
Michelle--Good point. Our parents have the greatest influence on us from an early age, similar to the "education" system in the book.
Shelby, I think he killed because he knew there was no other way out. Beatty had threatened him, and was taunting him.
Emily A.- Clarisse would be working for Beatty because she was underfile and when he was sick Beatty said we knew Clarisse and kept a watch on her and her family he probably knew him really well.
I wondered that too. The way Beaty talks about Clarisse at the begining of this section made me think she was working with him.
emilya- I think that the impression was made that Clarisse was working for Beatty the way that they were talking about her.
Maria, I think in this book the view of memories is opposite of the Giver. They are try to erase the past, not remember it all.
I really do not think she worked for him. All she did was make him lose an employee.
Kari B., but he was threatened that much he just did it and I think his hands were the exuce.
Anna D., If that's true then what are the right reasons?
Tomr- I like your connection to the education system. How their education dealing with the TV in basically every class...it's amazing that they even have pe classes and aren't all so totally fat couch potatoes.
I really don't think Clarrise worked for Beatty either. Why would she influence Montag to be interested in books if Beatty wanted the opposite?
We are talking about the possibilty of Clarisse working for Beatty in G2. I think that she does to a ceratin point work. She has so man freddoms that others don't have. I get the impression that she doesn't regularly ateend scholl, and everyone else does and yet she isn't disciplined.
I should ask this question again, now that we've read farther in the book. Is Montag truly a hero of the story? Can we consider Montag's actions heroic or simply confused and brash? This question is not asking if he is the protagonist of the story, it is asking if Montag is TRULY the typical, classic, storybook hero.
Did Clarisse have it in her to work for the government? She seemed so genuine, with a family. Maybe the government viewed her as a threat and her influence on Monta was an accident.
i just made a good comment on appearance versus reality.yay!
mphairMaybe they have lots of pe because they do watch so much tv.
At the end of this section, Montag plants books in the Black's house. Who are the Blacks?
hooray for lindsey!
Emily L., are you suggesting that Clarisse is so rebellious because she doesn't regularly attend school?
Off the idea of pe classes, it is possible that hey are genetically engigeeered so they won't get fat. We also don't how strenous there pe classes are.
In their school they have, I think, they have two classes a day that's some form of PE
hooray for lindsey!?!
Anna D. I think that he has just lost his heroism by killing Beatty, I think he was the hero before.
anna~i think Montag is a hero for wanting to challenge the system. He was scared, but he wasn't a coward like Faber. And i think he shows his heroism even more in this section because he wanted to protect Faber and he had a strong sense of courage when he was running.
Black is one of the other firemen.
why has he lost his heroism by killing Beatty?
The Blacks are one of the other Families of a fireman. Black is mentioned at montag's house.
What are the right reasons for burning.
ENLIGHTENMENT!!!MAYBE CLARISSE IS A SYMBOL OF CHALLENGING THE SYSTEM!!! EURIKA!!
Tom, I was no trying to suggest that. I'm trying to say that posibbly Clarisse works for Montag trying to catch those who have books. She befreinds and dies. People are disappointed that she dies, and slip up.
thank you riley!
I agree with you, Shelby.
Does the machanical hound scare everyone, or just Montag? It would make a lot of sense if it did scare everyone and play on people's fears.
Annad Good question. I believe he is a hero. He changes the society and shows people (including MIldred) a new way of life. Showing that books may not be so bad after all. But later on in hte book he may not be a true hero. Who knows...
What did Beatty gain from Clarrisse?
you spelled eureka wrong. sorry
thank you daniel!also.
Ben: about him losing his heroism by killing---I think the fact that he has killed may cause people, or the readers, to question the way they feel about him and whether or not they agree with his cause...
Because how is reading books and killing someone that just threatened him to be arrested being a hero?
I think that killing is a symbol of evil and "bad". If you thought that Montag was a hero earlier I wouldn't think that he would be very heroic. Just like Macbeth killing the king and Macduff's family, it's not very heroic to go out and kill people, in my oppinion.
Why didn't Montag plant the books in the firehouse instead of in the Black's house? Why not carry out his plan now before he leaves?
ben, I think that Montag is kind of a tragic hero. He definetly challenged the system, and wasn't that one of the qualities we said that a tragic hero has earlier this year?
Lane-Thanks. I'm a bad speller...in case you couldn't tell.
maddygI think the mechanical hound only scares him. I think he has an enemy in his work and somebody whos out to get him.
madison~ when i read this, i kinda hoped he would kill Beatty. As soon as he took the first book, Montag started to challenge the system and if he stoped then, then Faber would get in trouble and there would be no one left to keep standing up for books.
I think that the mechanical hound scares Montag because he knows he has a secret that he wants to hide, and the hound can like detect it or something like that.
HannahS, good point! That would make a much bigger change and effect in the society if he had planted the book in the fire-house; how might that have changed the society?
About the hound, I think the hound literally rips and tears poeple.
I didn't know that the mechanica hound was violent.
hannah- I think that he wants to plant the books at the basis of their society and why everything is so corrupt, therefore, if the fireman change, then that will possibly change the way that the society function
I agree that at the beginning of the book Montag is a very important, good character. But the question is not whether he is good or not, it is whether he is a hero or not. A true storybook hero knows without question what is right and what is wrong and is willing to fight for the right. This story is different in that there is no exact definition of what is right or wrong. This makes it difficult to characterize Montag as either a hero or not. He has no idea what is right and what is wrong. He has no idea of how to go about changing his society, but the fact that he actually WANTS to change the society can allow us to classify him as a hero. He challenges the system, but the arguing point is whether he does a good job of it or not.
Maria: good pointMontag is connected to so many things in the society (it. Clarisse, Faber, Beatty) so I guess that it would make sense that Montag could also be considered a type of hero in the sense that he and Faber have to carry out their plan, and expose the truth
What are the RIGHT reasons to burn?
Does anybody think that the random book that he pulled out of the venitlator grille just happened to be the Bible or does it symbolize anything?
Lauraf is right. They want to take the society down from the inside out. Just like parasites.
kari Bible was the book that we "saw" Montag steal.
Why relation do you see between the birds in Macbeth and 451?
Kari B.- I think that is was a symbol in a way because he started to want one.
That is interesting Kari. I think it just follows along the theme of religious (sp) things.
lane- the right reasons to burn is to get rid of all the problems that come from indepdent thinking and problems in general that come from haveing books around.Do they have newspapers or magazines?
Emily L., in both, birds are the symbol of freedom and innocence. In 451, that's what is being destroyed.
Come on people doesn't anyone want to answer my question. How do you burn right? What are the right reasons to burn?
Erin, they don't have any newspapers, but they have magazines.
karib~ I think that the Bible might be a symbol for something, but it also might not be. The Bible is a well known banned book around the world, so that might be just a book he used, but you never know... good question.
lane~ "It is a pleasure to burn..." There is no right way or wrong way, as long as it gets done. I think that by burning something you are making sure it never can come back.
that was fun.it was exciting.i just want to put it over the edge.
Oh, Lane, I'll take a crack at it. It is right to burn to protect people's minds, at least in the view of the government.
Then Why does montag say, "We never burned Right..."
Lane--maybe "we didn't burn the right things, or went about it all wrong
In This section of the book I think Montag is beginning to relize that burning is WRONG! Books aren't wrong they TEACH, and enable thought. Montage is beginning to see this when he talks to faber and when Beaty comes by his home. He's driven by curosity and that's good he wants to understand! To learn to know what's going on in his world. Mildred however can't see this at all she's perfectly content being bland and boring, going through life without a longing to know! Montag see this and doesn't know if he loves his own wife, or if he even did for that matter this Troubles him! He's willing to expose the truth at any cost right now! He'll do whatever it takes. Faber and Clarisse changed him why can't he change his society?
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